Ah well I see you moved from never to once, however you are still incorrect. But you are making progress.
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Florida Principal, Athletic Director Could Go to Jail for Prayer Before Lunch
- Thread starter Revmitchell
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Ah well I see you moved from never to once, however you are still incorrect. But you are making progress.
Nice fantasy on your part.
The facts are that, of his 20,000 pages of George Washington's public and private writings, there is only one recorded mention Christ. (which contrary to your false claim, I noted before). In none of his private writings does he mention Christ at all. There are hundreds of times he references God, however.
That is absolute historic fact. If you say "not it's not", you're either ignorant, or a liar, or both. If you don't believe me, look it up for yourself.
The facts are that, of his 20,000 pages of George Washington's public and private writings, there is only one recorded mention Christ. (which contrary to your false claim, I noted before). In none of his private writings does he mention Christ at all. There are hundreds of times he references God, however.
That is absolute historic fact. If you say "not it's not", you're either ignorant, or a liar, or both. If you don't believe me, look it up for yourself.
So George Washington, who you claim is a deist, supports teaching people from something he doesn't agree with? After all, the deist doesn't believe the bible, he doesn't believe God intervenes supernaturally in the lives of men, he doesn't believe in the miracles of Christ, etc. Yet Washington supported teaching people from this book he doesn't agree with. Yep, that makes sense.
Washington lived in a different age.
Washington was first and foremost a soldier. In that role, he learned to set aside issues that were secondary -- in his mind -- to the primary mission.
Those that want to set up Washington as some paragon of modern evangelicalism are as deluded as those who claim he was religiously neutral.
...and he was hardly consistent in his beliefs -- a common failing of human beings living in the 18th -- or any -- century.
The ready claim that he was with us or against us is pure hooey. Washington was a complex man, with many interests. He was certainly a Mason --as were a majority of the Founders -- but this was common for those wanting to be or already wealthy.
Those that want to claim this or that historical figure need to show a bit more charity and a bit more humility. We want our forebears to be paragons of virtue, but objective reaserch reveals they were flawed, incomplete sinners.
Shocker.
While he was the President, Washington attended Christ Church (an Anglican/Episcopalian congregation) in Philadelphia.
There does seem to be conflicting reports concerning his personal and private beliefs.
There is a reason why many of the founding fathers had serious reservations about the church in general:
Support of the Anglican Church could be interpreted as an endorsement of the Crown.
Apart from an outright denial of Christ, this reticence IMO is not conclusive proof that they were NOT believers in Jesus Christ as Savior.
HankD
There does seem to be conflicting reports concerning his personal and private beliefs.
There is a reason why many of the founding fathers had serious reservations about the church in general:
Support of the Anglican Church could be interpreted as an endorsement of the Crown.
Apart from an outright denial of Christ, this reticence IMO is not conclusive proof that they were NOT believers in Jesus Christ as Savior.
HankD
I looked it up and provided several instances. The lie is your based on the liberal indoctrination you have suffered from.
Can you give a couple of examples?
SPEECH TO THE DELAWARE CHIEFS
September 14, 1775, regarding the advance into Canada, General George Washington enlarged:
On July 9, 1776, upon receiving a copy of the Declaration of Independence from the Continental Congress, General George Washington issued the orders from his headquarters in New York authorizing the Continental Army to appoint and pay chaplains in every regiment.
note* no concern for separation of church and state here with regards to Christianity and the Military.
On Sunday, October 19, 1777, in a letter to Major-General Putnam, General Washington wrote:
September 14, 1775, regarding the advance into Canada, General George Washington enlarged:
On July 9, 1776, upon receiving a copy of the Declaration of Independence from the Continental Congress, General George Washington issued the orders from his headquarters in New York authorizing the Continental Army to appoint and pay chaplains in every regiment.
note* no concern for separation of church and state here with regards to Christianity and the Military.
On Sunday, October 19, 1777, in a letter to Major-General Putnam, General Washington wrote:
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Back on topic...
If, God forbid, there is some sort of tragedy at Pace High School (other than what has already transpired)...such as a shooting, an accident, fatalities, etc...
...watch how fast there will be "prayer vigils." The ACLU--even as stupid and morally bankrupt as they are--wouldn't be dumb enough to stop that kind of expression.
But right now...they feel completely fine with running an anti-Christian police state.
There is also an overlooked tragedy...one that ticks me off:
The student who at last graduation was forbidden to speak...because (gasp!) she might say something religious. I'm sorry...argue about the principal and jail time...but if you think that in any way the school board had any right to prohibit this girl from speaking about her faith, on her own, and not as an endorsement from the school...then I would question how seriously you take your faith.
I cannot imagine a more cut-and-dried violation of one's first amendment rights.
If, God forbid, there is some sort of tragedy at Pace High School (other than what has already transpired)...such as a shooting, an accident, fatalities, etc...
...watch how fast there will be "prayer vigils." The ACLU--even as stupid and morally bankrupt as they are--wouldn't be dumb enough to stop that kind of expression.
But right now...they feel completely fine with running an anti-Christian police state.
There is also an overlooked tragedy...one that ticks me off:
The student who at last graduation was forbidden to speak...because (gasp!) she might say something religious. I'm sorry...argue about the principal and jail time...but if you think that in any way the school board had any right to prohibit this girl from speaking about her faith, on her own, and not as an endorsement from the school...then I would question how seriously you take your faith.
I cannot imagine a more cut-and-dried violation of one's first amendment rights.
Two things, and on separate topics.
On the topic of Washington's quotes above, none of those are evidence to Washington having apersonal faith in Christ. Only once does he reference Christ (and that one has already been discussed), and in the others, he generically references the Christian religion. Thomas Jefferson and Bejamink Franklin wrote similarly about Christianity, and those two men were affirmed nonchristian deists.
On the original OP topic of speaking at a public school graduation, rbell has a good point. The court has ruled that a student leading prayer at a graduation excercise does not violate the establishment clause of Amendment I so long as the prayer does not appear to be school sponsored or endoresed, and is purely student-initiated. However, on the OP topic of restricting a students's graduation speech itself, courts have ruled that a sectarian commencement speech or secterian prayer as part of the speech, violates the establishment clause of Amendment I. If, however, religious references in a speech are nonsecterian, they fall under the protection of the free speech clause of Amendment I. However the courts have also refused to strike down district policies that allow elected students to deliver unrestricted message at graduation. So it's very much a "depends on the content and context" issue.
On the topic of Washington's quotes above, none of those are evidence to Washington having apersonal faith in Christ. Only once does he reference Christ (and that one has already been discussed), and in the others, he generically references the Christian religion. Thomas Jefferson and Bejamink Franklin wrote similarly about Christianity, and those two men were affirmed nonchristian deists.
On the original OP topic of speaking at a public school graduation, rbell has a good point. The court has ruled that a student leading prayer at a graduation excercise does not violate the establishment clause of Amendment I so long as the prayer does not appear to be school sponsored or endoresed, and is purely student-initiated. However, on the OP topic of restricting a students's graduation speech itself, courts have ruled that a sectarian commencement speech or secterian prayer as part of the speech, violates the establishment clause of Amendment I. If, however, religious references in a speech are nonsecterian, they fall under the protection of the free speech clause of Amendment I. However the courts have also refused to strike down district policies that allow elected students to deliver unrestricted message at graduation. So it's very much a "depends on the content and context" issue.
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Obviously you have to ignore evidence to believe your delusion. Man the libbies indoctrination runs deep in you.
It's actually you who is ignoring evidence to believe your delusion. As for "libbie indictrination" you seem to wield that dull sword whenever anyone disagrees with you, so all it does is display your inability to engage in respectful discussion. As for any "ïndoctrination", you can thank my history teacher at my conservative Baptist high school, and history professors at the two conservative Baptist colleges I attended.
Call it what you want but that is where you get your odd mindset from. It is the driving force behind your decisions. And it muddy's the waters for any objective thinking. The evidence is clear and bold. As far as any conservative education well no evidence supports that. As far as a repsectfull conversation you need to go back and look at your posts.
You have been largely inconsistent on this issue. First you stated that Washington never used the word Christ in any of his writings. Then you felt compelled to admit to one. Now I have shown the use of Christ to be quite often and you work to side step your previous two inconsistent statements eg "he never used Christ" and "he only used it once" , in order to defend against the evidence I have provided. I have shown your first two inconsistent statements to be in error and the third inconsistent statement, as error, is obvious for all to see.
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Magnetic Poles
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In other words, to disagree with you is to be unable to think clearly? :laugh:
Bro. I am quite sure you intended to post more than this but just got side tracked in your glee of words. I know there was something more significant than this ready to burst out of you in this thread.
It's amazing how man can make anything complex. The first amendment to the constitution is likely the clearest language possible, yet we have all of this sectarian verses non-sectarian crap. That amendment makes this statement: Congress cannot make a law that either makes you adhere to a religion or prohibiting your free exercise of your religion. So, if a graduate wants to get up and give a speech at graduation and mention Jesus Christ, the first amendment tells me that she has every right to. If a student or teacher at school wants to pray, they have every right to. It's really simple, and it's really sad that man has read into it things which clearly aren't there.
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