Featured Following up on "If you are not a Calvinist..." thread

The will applies only to repentance, not to having faith in Christ. The will of the flesh is putrid and sinful.

 

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine that was delivered to you.
And I believe that that cannot occur unless a person is born again. I am just pointing out that as a human in a physical body your response to being acted upon by the Spirit will be rational and involve actual mental processes which are described in ways like closing with Christ, relying on Christ, believing on Christ, repenting, accepting Christ. These involve the will - regenerated, yes but still your rational thought processes and belief. Faith, though a grace, will be exercised by you.
This is why a Puritan preacher can tell his flock to press into the Kingdom, strive to enter the straight gate, take heaven by violence and still be a five point Calvinist. (And remember, Church was mandatory so no one can say they were preaching to only a saved audience - and they were aware of that.)

 

As I said before, the will takes part in repentance. But never in salvation. Were you there to help when your parents conceived you? You were there after you became aware and tried to obey them.

 

Cornelius was born again before he got born again?

 

Regenerated unto salvation!

 

We're probably all nitpicking, but since this is a theology forum let me say this. If you are talking about what Calvinists call effectual calling then yes. If by salvation you mean justification then the natural birth analogy doesn't work. WCF larger catechism question 70 says justification is received by faith - which although is a grace, totally of God, it is still a rational thought process which requires some intellect. That does not happen before you are born no matter what some hyper Calvinist tells you.

 

Very well stated

peace to you

 

No

peace to you

 

then Jesus own Words in Mark 16:15 are POINTLESS!!!

"And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation (πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει)"

 

Dave you have put the cart before the horse in this matter.
By Calvinist logic
the person is saved before they call and
they call before they believe and
they believe before they hear the gospel and
they hear the gospel before it is presented and
the preacher presents the gospel before he is sent.

But note the order Paul describes here.

1) Those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.

Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

You may disagree with me but you should really not disagree with scripture.

 

<--------------> disregard

 

I think the WCF is off in some areas, this being one of them.

“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Romans 5:9 (KJV 1900)

Faith is the evidence that God justified us. The new birth (salvation) precedes faith.

 

So, "yes".

 

No George no! Actually there are hyper Calvinists on here who have recently said just that, but it is not a classical Calvinist position.

 

If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, you have only depraved human faith to trust in. The kind of faith that chooses to believe in Santa Claus. It cannot discern the true Christ but constructs a "Christ" idol from scripture to its liking.

 

All I know is that so far all the Calvinists on this thread seem to agree with my representation that "Cornelius was born again before he was born again". That's Calvinism for you. (And I'm not an Arminian).

 

Unfortunately you are correct there. I tend to be a Calvinist, at least I say that if you're going to try to explain things that are too high for us to understand as humans - then what we call Calvinism is probably the best we will do. But, there are a lot of errors on here. Effectual calling and election should not be confused with salvation. Faith as a fruit of the Spirit should not be confused with saving faith. Repentance is something WE have to do and is a "condition" of salvation. Calvinists who would disagree with the above are starting to lean toward hyper Calvinism. Your reply above is perfect in a thread about why I am not a Calvinist. If some of these folks descriptions are correct then you should run from it!

 

Babies in the womb? How do the elect who die go to heaven if not born again? How did John the Baptist become filled with the Spirit in his mother's womb?

 

Dave, I honestly don't know. On the Monergism web site there are some audio answers that might be of help. The Bible seems not to say much on that subject. I sometimes am afraid in our debates about Gods eternal purpose and sovereignty we come very close to the warning in the Bible never to say to God "what have you done". I can't find a verse that promises all babies are saved but I am actually afraid to surmise that the God who sent His own Son to die for us would have a newborn baby who never had a conscious thought wake up in Hell. I am afraid to do too much conjecture on that. I don't think Calvinist theologians have a definite answer on this so I wouldn't use it as a for or against Calvinism thing.