Following up on "If you are not a Calvinist..." thread

[1689Dave]

Well. I guess we just see things differently in that I believe the will is involved in salvation and it is the will where the Spirit works. I don't believe your human depraved unchanged will would ever choose Christ. I think it's more a matter of terminology. Since you don't really claim to be a Calvinist and the thread is about why am I not a Calvinist I would be curious as to your objections to Calvinism. I consider myself a Calvinist and yet you're take on things seem to me to be a lot like what I would consider high Calvinism or even hyper Calvinism. I'm trying to figure all this out and I do appreciate your patience in responding to all these posts.

The will applies only to repentance, not to having faith in Christ. The will of the flesh is putrid and sinful.

 

[DaveXR650]

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine that was delivered to you.
And I believe that that cannot occur unless a person is born again. I am just pointing out that as a human in a physical body your response to being acted upon by the Spirit will be rational and involve actual mental processes which are described in ways like closing with Christ, relying on Christ, believing on Christ, repenting, accepting Christ. These involve the will - regenerated, yes but still your rational thought processes and belief. Faith, though a grace, will be exercised by you.
This is why a Puritan preacher can tell his flock to press into the Kingdom, strive to enter the straight gate, take heaven by violence and still be a five point Calvinist. (And remember, Church was mandatory so no one can say they were preaching to only a saved audience - and they were aware of that.)

 

[1689Dave]

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine that was delivered to you.
And I believe that that cannot occur unless a person is born again. I am just pointing out that as a human in a physical body your response to being acted upon by the Spirit will be rational and involve actual mental processes which are described in ways like closing with Christ, relying on Christ, believing on Christ, repenting, accepting Christ. These involve the will - regenerated, yes but still your rational thought processes and belief. Faith, though a grace, will be exercised by you.
This is why a Puritan preacher can tell his flock to press into the Kingdom, strive to enter the straight gate, take heaven by violence and still be a five point Calvinist. (And remember, Church was mandatory so no one can say they were preaching to only a saved audience - and they were aware of that.)

As I said before, the will takes part in repentance. But never in salvation. Were you there to help when your parents conceived you? You were there after you became aware and tried to obey them.

 

[George Antonios]

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” Acts 10:34–35 (KJV 1900)

Only the Born-Again have these attributes. An example is Cornelius who did Born- Again works long before he heard Peter preach. You cannot hear the gospel in any true sense unless first Born Again.

Cornelius was born again before he got born again?

 

[Yeshua1]

Cornelius was born again before he got born again?

Regenerated unto salvation!

 

[DaveXR650]

As I said before, the will takes part in repentance. But never in salvation. Were you there to help when your parents conceived you? You were there after you became aware and tried to obey them.

We're probably all nitpicking, but since this is a theology forum let me say this. If you are talking about what Calvinists call effectual calling then yes. If by salvation you mean justification then the natural birth analogy doesn't work. WCF larger catechism question 70 says justification is received by faith - which although is a grace, totally of God, it is still a rational thought process which requires some intellect. That does not happen before you are born no matter what some hyper Calvinist tells you.

 

[canadyjd]

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine that was delivered to you.
And I believe that that cannot occur unless a person is born again. I am just pointing out that as a human in a physical body your response to being acted upon by the Spirit will be rational and involve actual mental processes which are described in ways like closing with Christ, relying on Christ, believing on Christ, repenting, accepting Christ. These involve the will - regenerated, yes but still your rational thought processes and belief. Faith, though a grace, will be exercised by you.
This is why a Puritan preacher can tell his flock to press into the Kingdom, strive to enter the straight gate, take heaven by violence and still be a five point Calvinist. (And remember, Church was mandatory so no one can say they were preaching to only a saved audience - and they were aware of that.)

Very well stated

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Cornelius was born again before he got born again?

No

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

Either way though, I would say that those that never hear the gospel were never part of God's elect

then Jesus own Words in Mark 16:15 are POINTLESS!!!

"And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation (πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει)"

 

[Silverhair]

Babies never hear the gospel but go to heaven if they die. How does the gospel save us? You must be saved to believe it. But then it saves us from our lifestyle. In Cornielus' case, from Roman culture. A Muslim might be born again but the gospel saves them from Islam. If we have eternal life, we were always saved and always will be.

Jesus says all the Father gives to Him will come to Him. Those who reject Calvinism haven't experienced it or they would embrace it. I call myself a Calvinist but only believe the first 3 points are accurate.

Dave you have put the cart before the horse in this matter.
By Calvinist logic
the person is saved before they call and
they call before they believe and
they believe before they hear the gospel and
they hear the gospel before it is presented and
the preacher presents the gospel before he is sent.

But note the order Paul describes here.

1) Those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.

Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

You may disagree with me but you should really not disagree with scripture.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

On what condition does God choose those to be illumined?

I would say that God illumines any to whom the Gospel is presented.

I think the question after that would then be who determines when or if the gospel is presented? What part does man's free will have in a Gospel presentation? What part does God have in a Gospel presentation?

Can a believer that quenches the Holy Spirit's desire to share the Gospel cause a non-believer to never hear the Gospel and thus go to Hell?

I don't even know how to pray about that haha. That is extremely complex...

 

[kyredneck]

<--------------> disregard

 

[1689Dave]

We're probably all nitpicking, but since this is a theology forum let me say this. If you are talking about what Calvinists call effectual calling then yes. If by salvation you mean justification then the natural birth analogy doesn't work. WCF larger catechism question 70 says justification is received by faith - which although is a grace, totally of God, it is still a rational thought process which requires some intellect. That does not happen before you are born no matter what some hyper Calvinist tells you.

I think the WCF is off in some areas, this being one of them.

“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Romans 5:9 (KJV 1900)

Faith is the evidence that God justified us. The new birth (salvation) precedes faith.

 

[George Antonios]

Regenerated unto salvation!

So, "yes".

 

[DaveXR650]

No George no! Actually there are hyper Calvinists on here who have recently said just that, but it is not a classical Calvinist position.

 

[1689Dave]

Dave you have put the cart before the horse in this matter.
By Calvinist logic
the person is saved before they call and
they call before they believe and
they believe before they hear the gospel and
they hear the gospel before it is presented and
the preacher presents the gospel before he is sent.

But note the order Paul describes here.

1) Those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.

Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

You may disagree with me but you should really not disagree with scripture.

If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, you have only depraved human faith to trust in. The kind of faith that chooses to believe in Santa Claus. It cannot discern the true Christ but constructs a "Christ" idol from scripture to its liking.

 

[George Antonios]

No George no! Actually there are hyper Calvinists on here who have recently said just that, but it is not a classical Calvinist position.

All I know is that so far all the Calvinists on this thread seem to agree with my representation that "Cornelius was born again before he was born again". That's Calvinism for you. (And I'm not an Arminian).

 

[DaveXR650]

Unfortunately you are correct there. I tend to be a Calvinist, at least I say that if you're going to try to explain things that are too high for us to understand as humans - then what we call Calvinism is probably the best we will do. But, there are a lot of errors on here. Effectual calling and election should not be confused with salvation. Faith as a fruit of the Spirit should not be confused with saving faith. Repentance is something WE have to do and is a "condition" of salvation. Calvinists who would disagree with the above are starting to lean toward hyper Calvinism. Your reply above is perfect in a thread about why I am not a Calvinist. If some of these folks descriptions are correct then you should run from it!

 

[1689Dave]

All I know is that so far all the Calvinists on this thread seem to agree with my representation that "Cornelius was born again before he was born again". That's Calvinism for you. (And I'm not an Arminian).

Babies in the womb? How do the elect who die go to heaven if not born again? How did John the Baptist become filled with the Spirit in his mother's womb?

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave, I honestly don't know. On the Monergism web site there are some audio answers that might be of help. The Bible seems not to say much on that subject. I sometimes am afraid in our debates about Gods eternal purpose and sovereignty we come very close to the warning in the Bible never to say to God "what have you done". I can't find a verse that promises all babies are saved but I am actually afraid to surmise that the God who sent His own Son to die for us would have a newborn baby who never had a conscious thought wake up in Hell. I am afraid to do too much conjecture on that. I don't think Calvinist theologians have a definite answer on this so I wouldn't use it as a for or against Calvinism thing.