For All you Calvinists, and otherwise

[Tom Butler]

I am newer in Reformed beliefs. So I pose these questions to all of you who have been down the road with this:

Jesus says that we come to Him because the Father draws us to Him, and states that no man can come to Him unless this takes place. John 6:44.

I take it that this is referring to salvation.

Can a person approach Jesus Christ, to be saved, and in turn, be rejected, because God had not drawn them? Does this happen?

No. They will not come until and unless they are drawn. Calvinists hold that the Holy Spirit draws the elect. Non-Cals believe that the Holy Spirit draws everybody.

Or, is it just a fact that whomever comes to Christ to be saved, came to Him because he or she was drawn to Him to do so, even though they may not know what this all meant, or maybe really never felt this drawing, only that they were lost and wanted to be saved?

This is what happened to me. As a nine-year-old, I had no concept of drawing, illumination, conviction, regeneration, etc. All I knew was that I suddenly saw my sin, and understood that I deserved hell because of it. Scared me to death. Then, all those sermons of "Jesus died for sinners just like you" came home to me, where they had meant nothing before.

So, could some people have believed on Him to eternal life, attend church, show fruits of a Christian, and yet be lost in their sins, because they approached God for salvation, uninvited?

No who approaches God for salvation approaches uninvited. Uninvited, he would not approach, nor would he want to.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Bethelassoc]

Here are some answers to the Primitive Baptist question. I'd say yes and no to Hyper-Calvinism; it depends on the group.

Old School or Old Line Primitive Baptists
The largest group of the Primitive Baptists. They do believe in preaching the gospel to the lost, etc. Here is a Q&A of what they believe:
http://oldlinemessenger.homestead.com/whatdopbbelieve.html

Absolute Predestinarians
The Absolute Predestinarians hold to the absolute predestination of all things. They reject the teaching that gospel (or "time") salvation is conditioned on obedience. They are often charged with believing that God is the author of sin.

Progressives
The Progressive Primitive Baptists separated from the main body around the turn of the 20th century, and have adopted such practices as Sunday School, instrumental music, homes for the aged, and various auxiliaries to the church. They have about 8,000 members in over 100 churches. To some PBs, they are not to be considered Primitive Baptists.

Universalists
Primitive Baptist Universalists form the smallest group and consist of 5 or 6 small associations in Appalachia and 2 or 3 in Louisiana that adapted the theory of universal atonement to the doctrines of Primitive Baptists. They've been called "No Hellers".

I know a little more about the Old Liners than the other groups. I've heard some of their preachers preach and they sound no different than other good preachers that I've heard in my lifetime.

David

 

[Dr. Bob]

No one would ever mistake them for Hyper-Calvinists.

Wanna bet? Every arminian/pelagian I know thinks if you believe in a sovereign God (not a sovereign free will of man) you are automatically a hyper-calvinist.

Read the Sword of the Lord. Listen to sermons by the ifbX'ers. They ALL mistake great men like Carey or Edwards or Whitefield or Spurgeon as hyper-calvinists.

And only demonstrate their own paucity of basic knowledge and understanding of the Gospel.

 

[Rippon]

Wanna bet? Every arminian/pelagian I know thinks if you believe in a sovereign God (not a sovereign free will of man) you are automatically a hyper-calvinist.

They do indeed.

They ALL mistake great men like Carey or Edwards or Whitefield or Spurgeon as hyper-calvinists.

And only demonstrate their own paucity of basic knowledge and understanding of the Gospel.

Just a few days ago Webdog called J.Edwards a Hyper-Calvinist! That's so nonsensical.

Well these days James White and Robert Reymond (among others)are being called the same. And Norman Geisler gets to call himself a moderate Calvinist against all evidence to the contrary.

 

[preacher4truth]

Not exactly. H-C and C are at odds. Calvinists, as most evangelicals, believe God has chosen to save people through the "foolishness of preaching."

William Carey, the first "modern missionary" was a Calvinist.

So was C. H. Spurgeon, the Prince of Preachers.

No one would ever mistake them for Hyper-Calvinists.

If they were on this board debating they'd be called HC too.

:thumbs:

 

[pinoybaptist]

I have been under the impression that the Primitive Baptist church is hyper-Calvinistic in doctrine. Although I have never been in one of these churches, I have been members of both IFB and SBC (which I currently attend) and this is what many of these pastors have told me.

Then your "information" about Primitive Baptists is based on hearsay by people who have their own biases against Primitive Baptists. I can assume you are afraid to go into a Primitive Baptist church just like a Roman Catholic used to not want to step inside a non-Roman Catholic church because he has been "told" they are heretics who will burn in hell, and vice-versa.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Some Primitive Baptists are Hyper Calvinist. It just depends on their view on public evangelism.

Primitive Baptists are NOT (just stressing, not yelling) Hyper Calvinists, for the simple reason that we are NOT Calvinists.
We hold to the Doctrine of Grace but have never identified ourselves with Calvin or his Institutes, and if a PB did, then he may be new in the church or he may have done so in error.
Not that we dislike our Calvinist brethren, it is just that in many points we differ with them.

Now, as to evangelism, we believe the gospel needs to be preached, but preached as a gospel of FINISHED eternal salvation and redemption by a SEATED, RESTED, RESURRECTED, SUCCESSFUL Savior and Redeemer and to be preached to those whose ears the gospel is for - the redeemed of the Lamb, who alone will rejoice at their salvation and glorify God for it, a pearl not to be cast before swine.

As to Missions ? We believe God has not changed and He still calls men out to preach the gospel to HIS PEOPLE, however, when a person hears the call to preach he MUST go IMMEDIATELY, not tarrying to find a mission board who will examine his credentials and determine his supportability and, goodness gracious (weren't the apostles mere fishermen ?), education, nor go out on a "deputization" trip to various sister churches, or put up a website where his friends can "support" him.

And the purpose of missions ? To gather a church for the purpose of glorifying God in their midst, and in the midst of crooked and perverse peoples, and it is God Himself who will add to the church: not "soul winning" methods, not conferences, not any of the trimmings we find in today's missions. It is not the purpose of the church to get souls eternally saved, the purpose of the church is education of God's people.

So, in these, we separate from the mainstream of denominational Baptists.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Now, as to evangelism, we believe the gospel needs to be preached, but preached as a gospel of FINISHED eternal salvation and redemption by a SEATED, RESTED, RESURRECTED, SUCCESSFUL Savior and Redeemer and to be preached to those whose ears the gospel is for - the redeemed of the Lamb, who alone will rejoice at their salvation and glorify God for it, a pearl not to be cast before swine

not being sarcastic or antagonistic, but look at the way salvation is discussed here on this baptist board....."saving", "saves", "will save", "lost"....future tense, or present tense.

Hadn't Christ been crucified aleady ? Died already ? Risen already ? Ascended already ? Seated at the right hand of power already ?

Shouldn't Christ be preached as having accomplished what he left heaven for to do ? Eternal salvation, eternal redemption, is PAST TENSE....now, if you will realize that the Bible teaches to GOD'S PEOPLE ONLY, time salvation, that is current and ongoing and that is the salvation that the ministry and the church is tasked with and which the elect shares an input.

 

[convicted1]

Then your "information" about Primitive Baptists is based on hearsay by people who have their own biases against Primitive Baptists. I can assume you are afraid to go into a Primitive Baptist church just like a Roman Catholic used to not want to step inside a non-Roman Catholic church because he has been "told" they are heretics who will burn in hell, and vice-versa.

Bro Pinoy,

I am about as FW as they get, but I wouldn't hessitate for one second going to a PB church. When it comes to Christ, there is way too much common ground for us to agree upon! I know this wasn't directed to me, but I wanted to tell you how I feel. I love you, Bro. Pinoy!!:jesus::thumbs::thumbs:

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[quantumfaith]

Wanna bet? Every arminian/pelagian I know thinks if you believe in a sovereign God (not a sovereign free will of man) you are automatically a hyper-calvinist.

Read the Sword of the Lord. Listen to sermons by the ifbX'ers. They ALL mistake great men like Carey or Edwards or Whitefield or Spurgeon as hyper-calvinists.

And only demonstrate their own paucity of basic knowledge and understanding of the Gospel.

Not sure if you intended this as an "or" or an "and" statement. Thus:

The primary difference between Arminians and both Pelagians and Semi-Pelagians is the issue of the necessity of grace. Pelagians deny grace is necessary for conversion. Semi-Pelagians deny grace is necessary for man to begin conversion (although, contrary to Pelagians, they think God’s must meet man half way). Arminians insist that God’s grace is necessary from the very beginning of conversion and throughout the entire process.

 

[Havensdad]

Primitive Baptists are NOT (just stressing, not yelling) Hyper Calvinists, for the simple reason that we are NOT Calvinists.
We hold to the Doctrine of Grace but have never identified ourselves with Calvin or his Institutes, and if a PB did, then he may be new in the church or he may have done so in error.
Not that we dislike our Calvinist brethren, it is just that in many points we differ with them.

Now, as to evangelism, we believe the gospel needs to be preached, but preached as a gospel of FINISHED eternal salvation and redemption by a SEATED, RESTED, RESURRECTED, SUCCESSFUL Savior and Redeemer and to be preached to those whose ears the gospel is for - the redeemed of the Lamb, who alone will rejoice at their salvation and glorify God for it, a pearl not to be cast before swine.

As to Missions ? We believe God has not changed and He still calls men out to preach the gospel to HIS PEOPLE, however, when a person hears the call to preach he MUST go IMMEDIATELY, not tarrying to find a mission board who will examine his credentials and determine his supportability and, goodness gracious (weren't the apostles mere fishermen ?), education, nor go out on a "deputization" trip to various sister churches, or put up a website where his friends can "support" him.

And the purpose of missions ? To gather a church for the purpose of glorifying God in their midst, and in the midst of crooked and perverse peoples, and it is God Himself who will add to the church: not "soul winning" methods, not conferences, not any of the trimmings we find in today's missions. It is not the purpose of the church to get souls eternally saved, the purpose of the church is education of God's people.

So, in these, we separate from the mainstream of denominational Baptists.

My apologies. This gentleman IS a hyper-Calvinist under modern theological definitions (a person who adheres to the 5 points of the Doctrines of Grace, and is generally anti-evangelistic).

I agree that we don't "win souls" (this has already been done). Unfortunately, the Bible also speaks of people being "Saved through the foolishness of preaching." So they were both saved at the cross, and they are saved when they come to Christ through the preached word.

And, just so we are clear, the Biblical method for evangelism is Street Preaching, where we "Command all men everywhere to repent."
Just saying. :jesus:

 

[Robert Snow]

Then your "information" about Primitive Baptists is based on hearsay by people who have their own biases against Primitive Baptists. I can assume you are afraid to go into a Primitive Baptist church just like a Roman Catholic used to not want to step inside a non-Roman Catholic church because he has been "told" they are heretics who will burn in hell, and vice-versa.

Maybe if I knew where one of these Primitive churches was located, I might visit, but they seem to be very scarce in my neck of the woods. It's not my fault that there are so few Christians who attend your churches.

 

[Robert Snow]

News Flash:

I Googled Primitive Baptist Churches and found out there is one less than a mile from my house. Wow, I've been living here for over 15 years and have never noticed it before. I may go check it out today!

 

[preacher4truth]

News Flash:

I Googled Primitive Baptist Churches and found out there is one less than a mile from my house. Wow, I've been living here for over 15 years and have never noticed it before. I may go check it out today!

Be careful if you go, and let us know that you did. You might just get labelled an Hyper-Calvinist.

:thumbs:

 

[Robert Snow]

Be careful if you go, and let us know that you did. You might just get labelled an Hyper-Calvinist.

:thumbs:

Don't worry. I will disguise myself so as not to be identified. And, I will recite the Lord's Prayer over and over so as not to be corrupted! :tongue3:

Actually, I look forward to worshiping our Lord and listening to God's Word being preached.

 

[TomVols]

Um, Hyper-Calvinism is just Calvinism with an anti-evangelistic bent. I do not know of any Hyper Calvinists on this board.

Correct. I don't know if I've ever met a Hyper Calvinist. Hypers aren't real Calvinists. I would argue HyperCalvinism is different from Calvinism, as did Spurgeon, Whitefield, etc.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Not sure if you intended this as an "or" or an "and" statement.

Both. Most of those claiming to be "Arminian" don't have a clue that they are actually espousing semi-pelagian heresy. All "works". All "me".

They couch it in terms to make them feel like they're not those "bad" calvinists and don't realize they hold to a false impotent man-made gospel.

I always try to lump the arminian/pelagian false religion together to help point out the grievous error of their "doctrine".

 

[Amy.G]

Both. Most of those claiming to be "Arminian" don't have a clue that they are actually espousing semi-pelagian heresy. All "works". All "me".

They couch it in terms to make them feel like they're not those "bad" calvinists and don't realize they hold to a false impotent man-made gospel.

I always try to lump the arminian/pelagian false religion together to help point out the grievous error of their "doctrine".

I don't know who you're referring to, but there's not one person on this board who believes that salvation is "all" me.

 

[psalms109:31]

Coward

It is all of God if we are condemned or saved, because of His word, His decree, His will, His decisions. The way to salvation and death did not come from man and his ideas, but from God and His word.

That those who believe in His Son will be saved and those who do not will be condemned. Man did not place those roads before us God did. You will have to just believe or not believe that is up to you.

I cannot save myself, because the wages of my sin is death. So I am saved by grace, i just have to trust God and His word.

Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[Psalm 32:1,2]

 

[Benjamin]

I always try to lump the arminian/pelagian false religion together to help point out the grievous error of their "doctrine".

I always try to lump 5 point Calvinism/Hyper Calvinism together with the logical necessity of Hard Determinism to help point out the grievous errors which lead their "doctrines" straight into theological fatalism.