For All you Calvinists, and otherwise

[Robert Snow]

Both. Most of those claiming to be "Arminian" don't have a clue that they are actually espousing semi-pelagian heresy. All "works". All "me".

They couch it in terms to make them feel like they're not those "bad" calvinists and don't realize they hold to a false impotent man-made gospel.

I always try to lump the arminian/pelagian false religion together to help point out the grievous error of their "doctrine".

You love throwing out terms like "heresy." I would gladly give you my opinion of what I heard at this Primitive Baptist church, but will you allow me to use this pejorative term without consequence, or are you the only one who is free to use it?

 

[Robert Snow]

You know, I will say what I think; you do what you want!

At first these primitives sang without instruments for quite a while. I have been in Baptist churches for over 40 years, yet these were hymns I have never heard before. I did notice, thumbing through the hymnal that these songs were written in the 1700's and 1800's. Nothing wrong with either of these points.

Then after this the leader, I guess they call themselves Elders, proceeded to preach. During this sermon he mentioned several times that only those who God chooses to save are the redeemed. I expected this.

Then came the shocker! On at least two occasions he said that even those who never hear the Gospel will be saved if they are the elect. It was all I could do not to make a scene and walk out. I didn't, out of respect to our Lord, I endured it.

Say what you want, to me this is not only hyper-Calvinism, but it does not represent what the Word of God shows to be the Gospel. Thank God when I first choose to trust Christ, I was spared from this well-meaning but erroneous doctrine.

I don't doubt that these people are Christians who love the Lord; they are, however, in grave error in believing this doctrine.

There, and I didn't even use the 'H" word!

 

[Benjamin]

Can a person approach Jesus Christ, to be saved, and in turn, be rejected, because God had not drawn them? Does this happen?

Or, is it just a fact that whomever comes to Christ to be saved, came to Him because he or she was drawn to Him to do so, even though they may not know what this all meant, or maybe really never felt this drawing, only that they were lost and wanted to be saved?

So, could some people have believed on Him to eternal life, attend church, show fruits of a Christian, and yet be lost in their sins, because they approached God for salvation, uninvited?

I know it sounds confusing, but this is a legitimate question, and I am new to trying to understand Calvinist teachings.

Any good studies on this that could be suggested would be greatly appreciated.

- Thanks

I'll just offer you a few scriptures for your study; and wish you good luck in your "trying" to understand limited invitation and Calvinism.

(Isa 45:22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

(Isa 45:23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

(Isa 45:24) Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.


(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


(Psa 145:17) The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

(Psa 145:18) The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

(Psa 145:19) He will fulfill the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.

(Psa 145:20) The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.


(Jas 4:8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

(Jas 4:9) Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

(Jas 4:10) Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.


(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[kyredneck]

Primitive Baptists are NOT (just stressing, not yelling) Hyper Calvinists, for the simple reason that we are NOT Calvinists.
We hold to the Doctrine of Grace but have never identified ourselves with Calvin or his Institutes, and if a PB did, then he may be new in the church or he may have done so in error.
Not that we dislike our Calvinist brethren, it is just that in many points we differ with them.

Now, as to evangelism, we believe the gospel needs to be preached, but preached as a gospel of FINISHED eternal salvation and redemption by a SEATED, RESTED, RESURRECTED, SUCCESSFUL Savior and Redeemer and to be preached to those whose ears the gospel is for - the redeemed of the Lamb, who alone will rejoice at their salvation and glorify God for it, a pearl not to be cast before swine.

As to Missions ? We believe God has not changed and He still calls men out to preach the gospel to HIS PEOPLE, however, when a person hears the call to preach he MUST go IMMEDIATELY, not tarrying to find a mission board who will examine his credentials and determine his supportability and, goodness gracious (weren't the apostles mere fishermen ?), education, nor go out on a "deputization" trip to various sister churches, or put up a website where his friends can "support" him.

And the purpose of missions ? To gather a church for the purpose of glorifying God in their midst, and in the midst of crooked and perverse peoples, and it is God Himself who will add to the church: not "soul winning" methods, not conferences, not any of the trimmings we find in today's missions. It is not the purpose of the church to get souls eternally saved, the purpose of the church is education of God's people.

So, in these, we separate from the mainstream of denominational Baptists.

Very well said brother. Thank you.

 

[Robert Snow]

Very well said brother. Thank you.

Let me ask you: Do you think a person, other than a child or someone mentally disabled, can be saved without ever hearing the Gospel?

 

[The Archangel]

I always try to lump 5 point Calvinism/Hyper Calvinism together with the logical necessity of Hard Determinism to help point out the grievous errors which lead their "doctrines" straight into theological fatalism.

Well...then you really don't know what 5-Point Calvinists teach and practice.

Now, I know that you wrote this to counter Dr. Bob's post. But things like this are really unhelpful. To be fair, I'm not sure that Dr. Bob's post was all that helpful, though I agree with his assessment.

The Archangel

 

[quantumfaith]

Both. Most of those claiming to be "Arminian" don't have a clue that they are actually espousing semi-pelagian heresy. All "works". All "me".

They couch it in terms to make them feel like they're not those "bad" calvinists and don't realize they hold to a false impotent man-made gospel.

I always try to lump the arminian/pelagian false religion together to help point out the grievous error of their "doctrine".

Well Dr. Bob, with all due respect, I disagree with your assertion that Arminian theology is heresy. But, such is life.

 

[quantumfaith]

You love throwing out terms like "heresy." I would gladly give you my opinion of what I heard at this Primitive Baptist church, but will you allow me to use this pejorative term without consequence, or are you the only one who is free to use it?

Robert, often we find here on BB, "heresy" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[quantumfaith]

I don't know who you're referring to, but there's not one person on this board who believes that salvation is "all" me.

Amy,

I am reminded of a quote by Ronald Reagan.

"Its not that my liberal friends do not know much, its that what they know just isnt so."

Could be adjusted for those of us who are non-Calvinists.

And before the "fiery darts" begin to fly, I am stating this with a warm smile on my face, and still having love in my heart for my "reformed" brethren.

 

[Benjamin]

Well...then you really don't know what 5-Point Calvinists teach and practice.

Now, I know that you wrote this to counter Dr. Bob's post. But things like this are really unhelpful. To be fair, I'm not sure that Dr. Bob's post was all that helpful, though I agree with his assessment.

The Archangel

Key words: "logical necessity" work very well with understanding, thank you; I simply don't buy into of what Calvinism struggles to teach about those things with are mutually exclusive. ...and frankly, wasn't trying to be helpful to the cause and effect practices of Calvinism.

 

[The Archangel]

Key words: "logical necessity" work very well with understanding, thank you; I simply don't buy into of what Calvinism struggles to teach about those things with are mutually exclusive. ...and frankly, wasn't trying to be helpful to the cause and effect practices of Calvinism.

The logical necessity of a "hard determinism" just isn't so in Calvinism (perhaps the heretical hyper-Calvinism, where they state persons can and will be saved without the preaching of the Gospel).

Again, I'm not sure you understand the position thoroughly.

The Archangel

 

[Benjamin]

Again, I'm not sure you understand the position thoroughly.

The Archangel

Maybe sometime when I'm not studying so much with finals and all we can go into some depth of my understandings on this subject.

Blessings

 

[The Archangel]

Maybe sometime when I'm not studying so much with finals and all we can go into some depth of my understandings on this subject.

Blessings

Study well...and blessings on your finals!

BTW, what subjects? Are you going for a degree? If so, which one and at what level?

The Archangel

 

[preacher4truth]

I'll just offer you a few scriptures for your study; and wish you good luck in your "trying" to understand limited invitation and Calvinism.

(Isa 45:22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

(Isa 45:23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

(Isa 45:24) Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.


(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


(Psa 145:17) The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

(Psa 145:18) The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

(Psa 145:19) He will fulfill the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.

(Psa 145:20) The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.


(Jas 4:8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

(Jas 4:9) Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

(Jas 4:10) Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.


(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I'm not certain really if I should answer you, nor how to answer you. Your post seems to mock the doctrine and my intent to understand it.. "..."trying" to understand limited invitation and Calvinism"....? Was it necessary to state it that way? I wouldn't call it limited invitation.

Maybe we can get on the right track with this, but I don't think your intentions were for dialogue, but rather borderline polemic.

And this is our first attempt at dialogue on here. Not a great start really.

Also, your Scriptures aren't enlightening on the topic. Perhaps you could elaborate?

 

[Dr. Bob]

You love throwing out terms like "heresy." I would gladly give you my opinion of what I heard at this Primitive Baptist church, but will you allow me to use this pejorative term without consequence, or are you the only one who is free to use it?

Well Dr. Bob, with all due respect, I disagree with your assertion that Arminian theology is heresy. But, such is life.

Ah, try to find where I refer to arminianism (TRUE arminian belief) as "heresy". I don't. Pelagianism IS heresy and the term used on the BB of any false, cultic teaching (another word taboo = "cult" UNLESS we are talking about a real cult.

My point is that most who "claim" the theological construct of "arminian" haven't a clue of real arminian belief (which is really not that far off in many respects from Calvinism). They speak of what THEY must DO either working FOR salvation, to KEEP salvation or at least WITH GOD as some sort of synergistic partnership. THAT is pelagian heresy.

 

[quantumfaith]

Ah, try to find where I refer to arminianism (TRUE arminian belief) as "heresy". I don't. Pelagianism IS heresy and the term used on the BB of any false, cultic teaching (another word taboo = "cult" UNLESS we are talking about a real cult.

My point is that most who "claim" the theological construct of "arminian" haven't a clue of real arminian belief (which is really not that far off in many respects from Calvinism). They speak of what THEY must DO either working FOR salvation, to KEEP salvation or at least WITH GOD as some sort of synergistic partnership. THAT is pelagian heresy.

That is precisely why I asked you earlier if your comment was "and" or "or".

 

[quantumfaith]

Ah, try to find where I refer to arminianism (TRUE arminian belief) as "heresy". I don't. Pelagianism IS heresy and the term used on the BB of any false, cultic teaching (another word taboo = "cult" UNLESS we are talking about a real cult.

My point is that most who "claim" the theological construct of "arminian" haven't a clue of real arminian belief (which is really not that far off in many respects from Calvinism). They speak of what THEY must DO either working FOR salvation, to KEEP salvation or at least WITH GOD as some sort of synergistic partnership. THAT is pelagian heresy.

Most of John Q Churchmember, of any "ilk" have little to limited understanding of "theology" in any formal sense. But most, who would by chance classify themselves as "arminian" would not claim they could "work" for salvation, but I would bet that they would agree with your statemtent that salvation does have a synergistic element to it.

 

[kyredneck]

Let me ask you: Do you think a person, other than a child or someone mentally disabled, can be saved without ever hearing the Gospel?

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1618951#post1618951

Excerpt from a PM sent to me from a well known BB member some while back:

“I might also add that some believe that regeneration can remain inactive before it leads to repentance and faith. [Abraham Kuyper, footnote page 101 in Hoekema's Saved by Grace.] I am not convinced that this is not possible. I have wondered for some time if this was the case with the Apostle Paul since he was asked by Jesus Christ on the Damascus Road: "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."[KJV] or in the NASB and NKJV: "It is hard for you to kick against the goads.” Now unless something had happened to Saul previously why would he be asked this question?

Gowens makes the statement: "This distinction between regeneration and gospel conversion is essential.” I agree! I have posted on the forum earlier the following:

1. The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the ‘effectual call’ of the Holy Spirit.

2. Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the ‘effectual call’ and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration.”

It is their belief that “regeneration can remain inactive before it leads to repentance and faith” that gives the Primitives a bad rap.

 

[Robert Snow]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1618951#post1618951

Excerpt from a PM sent to me from a well known BB member some while back:



It is their belief that “regeneration can remain inactive before it leads to repentance and faith” that gives the Primitives a bad rap.

Well, I imagine that Primitive Baptist are no different than other groups, everyone doesn't see things exactly the same.

I am a dispensational pre-millennialist who is neither a Calvinist nor an Armenian. I feel confident that God has lead me to the SBC church I now attend and am comfortable with these beliefs.

 

[glfredrick]

I always try to lump 5 point Calvinism/Hyper Calvinism together with the logical necessity of Hard Determinism to help point out the grievous errors which lead their "doctrines" straight into theological fatalism.

But there is no "hard determinism" in Calvinism.

The person is led into a right relationship with God on God's timetable, which is not the instant the message is heard or any other time.

One of the errors I've seen in those describing Calvinsim as it is actually practiced is that they seem to hold (falsely) that because God draws the elect and God causes them to be regenerated, that happens against the will, or immediately (determinism). Such is never the case that I can see, nor was it for me, though decidedly a complete work of God.

I hated God, cursed God, and was definitely not "seeking" God in any way, shape, or form. But, God came looking for me. He made Himself known to me. Wooed me. Loved me. Caused me to love Him! Oh, what a glorious day when I finally realized that I did! My heart and mind was changed, from hate and cursing to wishing above all other things to have a relationship with God in Christ! Grace! Glorious grace of a magnificent and loving God!

If it were up to me to go and seek God, I would still be lost and doomed! NO MAN would have convinced me to seek God. Oh, the things I used to do and say to the persons who tried... I get the "utterly depraved" part of Calvinism from a very personal point of view.