Hear, hear!
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For By Grace Are Ye Saved
- Thread starter OldRegular
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Hear, hear!
So what happens to those who are just too stupid to understand?
Since Christ died for deaf people as well, I believe that is indeed what the author was portraying.
To quote the great theologian Forest Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does".
You did no such thing, so stop.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
About what? Will there be deaf people in Heaven? If so, faith does not come through physical hearing alone, as evidenced by the verses immediately following. Was "their sound that went into all the earth" a physical sound heard by the ear? The verse is clearly referring to understanding, and this understanding coming from the Holy Spirit.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Perhaps the reason faith is a gift is for those who cannot read as well as those who cannot hear! The following are repeated from post #96 for your edification!
Romans 12:3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Romans 12:6. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Ephesians 2:8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
1 Corinthians 12:4-9
4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9. To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
...and as has been debated to death here...those passages do not prove the gift of "saving faith" given to the "elect", ...also, are you claiming the "every man" in Romans 12:3 has this gift?!?
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Then it must be a gift of the Spirit contrary to your earlier dispute of my post #96! You really need to be consistent "webdog"!
Hardly, as deaf people use faith every day in their lives.
Romans 12 is written to believers, those who are already in the body of Christ.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
These are spiritual gifts given, especially to the early Church, they included performing miracles, speaking in tongues, healing and other gifts. And not every person was given the same gift. If this was speaking of unbelievers, then all would be saved, because verse 3 says God hath dealt to "every man" the measure of faith. All would have faith in Christ, and all would be saved.
1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
Verse 9 says to one believer is given faith. It does not say all are given faith. This was a special gift. Paul says more about this in the very next chapter. And if you interpret this to mean the faith to believe in Christ, then all men would be saved because verse 7 says the manifestation of the Spirit is given to "every man". So all men would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and be saved.
1 Cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Let me ask you this, have you removed any mountains lately? I know I haven't. And I haven't performed any miracles or healed anyone either.
These were special gifts given to the early church especially to further the gospel. There is really no record of the gifts continuing after the 1st century, although some believe they continue today.
So, this is not speaking of the faith to receive and accept Jesus as your saviour, this was a spiritual gift given to those who already believe to perform supernatural works.
You can't pull verses out of context to prove your doctrine.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
These are spiritual gifts given, especially to the early Church, they included performing miracles, speaking in tongues, healing and other gifts. And not every person was given the same gift. If this was speaking of unbelievers, then all would be saved, because verse 3 says God hath dealt to "every man" the measure of faith. All would have faith in Christ, and all would be saved.
1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
Verse 9 says to one believer is given faith. It does not say all are given faith. This was a special gift. Paul says more about this in the very next chapter. And if you interpret this to mean the faith to believe in Christ, then all men would be saved because verse 7 says the manifestation of the Spirit is given to "every man". So all men would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and be saved.
1 Cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Let me ask you this, have you removed any mountains lately? I know I haven't. And I haven't performed any miracles or healed anyone either.
These were special gifts given to the early church especially to further the gospel. There is really no record of the gifts continuing after the 1st century, although some believe they continue today.
So, this is not speaking of the faith to receive and accept Jesus as your saviour, this was a spiritual gift given to those who already believe to perform supernatural works.
You can't pull verses out of context to prove your doctrine.
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Certainly there will be deaf people in heaven (your non-sequitur argument aside).
But, the Paul's intent in the verse is not speaking about deaf people and I suspect you know that.
The fact remains that the word "hear" in the passage does not speak to "understanding." That is why often we see this word coupled with the word "understanding" in other passages. If these words were coupled in this verse, I would give hearty agreement to your interpretation. However, this is not the case. The word means what it means and it does not mean what you say.
Blessings,
The Archangel
Understanding is coupled with hear in the immediate context...
7Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world." 19Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."
Verse 18 is a quote of Psalm 19, which is clearly not speaking of an audible voice but the understanding of God's glory through His handiwork. I'm afraid your interpretation is quite lacking.
Whether to hear or not is a choice.
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
It is not that man cannot hear and understand, men choose not to hear and understand. God called these men, but they would not answer. There goes the doctrine of Limited Atonement right there. Many are called, but few are chosen.
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
It is not that man cannot hear and understand, men choose not to hear and understand. God called these men, but they would not answer. There goes the doctrine of Limited Atonement right there. Many are called, but few are chosen.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Yes since Paul is writing to Christians.
In the passages presented above I did not mention "saving faith". However in my original post of these scripture I did pose the question which I pose to you now:
If faith is spoken of as a Spiritual Gift how can anyone on this Forum argue that what has been called "Saving Faith" is not a gift of GOD, particularly in light of Ephesians 2:8?
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Winman
Where have I said all are given faith? I have simply quoted Scripture showing that Faith is a Gift in response to a post by Benefactor.
Only the Elect are given faith to believe as clearly shown in Ephesians 2:8. Some just refuse to believe that truth wanting to believe that they have the final say in their salvation. GOD did HIS part now it is entirely up to the BIG I. Must make them feel a little superior to those of us who just depend entirely on the GRACE of GOD.
Where have I said all are given faith? I have simply quoted Scripture showing that Faith is a Gift in response to a post by Benefactor.
Only the Elect are given faith to believe as clearly shown in Ephesians 2:8. Some just refuse to believe that truth wanting to believe that they have the final say in their salvation. GOD did HIS part now it is entirely up to the BIG I. Must make them feel a little superior to those of us who just depend entirely on the GRACE of GOD.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
I see "ugly Webdog" popped out (as opposed to the nice Webdog you have been recently). Perhaps you are having a bad day. I have been nothing but cordial to you (unless you consider the mere thought of opposition as in-cordial) and I don't deserve your all-too-common vitriol for disagreeing with you.
The immediate context of v. 14 is speaking about physically hearing through the ears. So, also is v. 17.
In verse 18, Paul switches gears (as seen in the adversative particle "but" alla). This serves to mark opposition, antithesis, or transition to or from the preceding passage.
Further more, you are seeking to imply that hearing is understanding in and of itself which certainly cannot be applied to verse 14 and the other verses in the passage. As I have strenuously argued in the past--faith comes by hearing; hearing and having faith (which presumes understanding what you have heard) are not synonymous.
The fact remains that the Greek word in verse 17 is incapable of referring to "understanding." So, your problem is not with my interpretation, which I have never offered, but with the text itself.
I hope you have a better day.
Blessings,
The Archangel
The "every man" in Romans 12:3b is in the context of Romans 12:3a. It is "every man [that is among you]."
Romans 12:3 is NOT, NOT, NOT saying that God has given to every single individual--saved and unsaved--"the measure of faith." The "every man" there is the same "every man" earlier qualified as "that is among you" (the church). The idea is that no one in the church should think himself more highly than he should because all believers have received their measure of faith from God. Verse 6 elaborates that the measure/proportion of faith the God has dealt to the body of Christ is also a gift that those to whom God has given a gift of prophesy depend upon.
It is absolute eisegesis to read the "every man" in 12:3b as every individual whether saved or unsaved rather than in the context of 12:3a and the rest of the surrounding passage that is specifically targeted to the body of Christ. One having "a measure of faith" from God is another way of saying that that person is a believer and in the body of Christ.
I'm having a great day, don't understand the need for the ad hom. Stating your view is lacking is hardly "ugly" nor vitriolic, and for someone to think that is just plain juvenile. Thicker skin may be in order.
Since I'm not alone in my understanding of the text, I will agree to disagree with your understanding of the greek and the text, particularly with the "switching gears" you state in v. 18, which I see as eisegesis on your part (calm down, no attack here). I hope this disagreement doesn't warrant further attacks from yourself, which is becoming "all too common" when one disagrees with you.
I hope you have a better day.
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