For By Grace Are Ye Saved

[webdog]

The "every man" in Romans 12:3b is in the context of Romans 12:3a. It is "every man [that is among you]."

Romans 12:3 is NOT, NOT, NOT saying that God has given to every single individual--saved and unsaved--"the measure of faith." The "every man" there is the same "every man" earlier qualified as "that is among you" (the church). The idea is that no one in the church should think himself more highly than he should because all believers have received their measure of faith from God. Verse 6 elaborates that the measure/proportion of faith the God has dealt to the body of Christ is also a gift that those to whom God has given a gift of prophesy depend upon.

It is absolute eisegesis to read the "every man" in 12:3b as every individual whether saved or unsaved rather than in the context of 12:3a and the rest of the surrounding passage that is specifically targeted to the body of Christ. One having "a measure of faith" from God is another way of saying that that person is a believer and in the body of Christ.

I wasn't reading anything into it, you are preaching to the choir. I was asking a question for clarification.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Originally Posted by OldRegular

Martyn Lloyd-Jones, The Holy Spirit, page 140 makes the following argument [Paraphrased for brevity.]

“It is unfortunate that all too often saving faith is compared to the choices that people make in life. The argument is as follows :

Faith is a natural faculty that every person has. You are always exercising faith in your life, you couldn’t live a day without doing so. You exercise faith when you go out to start your car. You exercise faith when you board an airplane. Just as you trust that the car will start and the airplane will arrive safely, why don’t you trust Jesus Christ as Savior?

In fact starting a car or boarding an airplane have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless."

Excellent quote.

 

[AresMan]

Romans 12 is written to believers, those who are already in the body of Christ.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

These are spiritual gifts given, especially to the early Church, they included performing miracles, speaking in tongues, healing and other gifts. And not every person was given the same gift.

This was my point above. Thanks.

If this was speaking of unbelievers, then all would be saved, because verse 3 says God hath dealt to "every man" the measure of faith. All would have faith in Christ, and all would be saved.

This is not correct. The "every man" in Romans 12:3b is the same "every man" in Romans 13:2a. It is "every man [that is among you]." The ones to whom God has given "a measure/proportion of faith" are, by definition, believers, as you have correctly inferred; the context, however, is the body of Christ as you have also correctly inferred. The "every man" of Romans 12:3b is not an island from the rest of the context; it is clearly referring to every man in the body of Christ.

1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Verse 9 says to one believer is given faith. It does not say all are given faith. This was a special gift. Paul says more about this in the very next chapter. And if you interpret this to mean the faith to believe in Christ, then all men would be saved because verse 7 says the manifestation of the Spirit is given to "every man". So all men would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and be saved.

Since Romans 12 says that everyone in the body of Christ has a measure or proportion of faith, not everyone has the same level of faith. The spiritual gifts are not necessarily either-or and all-or-none. The spiritual gift of faith here would be a greater, more pronounced faith than that of the believer who has not received a special spiritual gift of faith. Everyone in the body of Christ has a measure or proportion of faith.

Once again, you take the "every man" in verse 7 out of context to assume that it means every human being without exception. It means every man in the body of Christ. Look at verses 11 and 12:

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man [see v.12] severally as he will.
1Co 12:12 For [because] as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members [see v.11] of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

1 Cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Let me ask you this, have you removed any mountains lately? I know I haven't. And I haven't performed any miracles or healed anyone either.

Paul was speaking in the subjunctive. He was not saying "Since I have...," he was saying "Even if I were to have..."

These were special gifts given to the early church especially to further the gospel. There is really no record of the gifts continuing after the 1st century, although some believe they continue today.

I do not believe that the "sign gift" (tongues, healing, prophesy, etc.) continue as the modus operandi today, but other gifts, such as faith, teaching, grace, and ministry continue today.

So, this is not speaking of the faith to receive and accept Jesus as your saviour, this was a spiritual gift given to those who already believe to perform supernatural works.

I believe that Gospel faith is part of the same faith in God for other things and is included with the faith that God gives to everyone in the body of Christ.

You can't pull verses out of context to prove your doctrine.

Neither can you.

 

[Winman]

Since Romans 12 says that everyone in the body of Christ has a measure or proportion of faith, not everyone has the same level of faith. The spiritual gifts are not necessarily either-or and all-or-none. The spiritual gift of faith here would be a greater, more pronounced faith than that of the believer who has not received a special spiritual gift of faith. Everyone in the body of Christ has a measure or proportion of faith.

Once again, you take the "every man" in verse 7 out of context to assume that it means every human being without exception. It means every man in the body of Christ. Look at verses 11 and 12:

Boy, reading without comprehension is useless. I was not saying the gift of faith in Romans 12 or in 1 Corinthians was for every man. I clearly highlighted the words "brethren" and the verses showing we are the body of Christ. I was trying to make the point that this "gift of faith" only applies to those who have already trusted in Christ and received the Holy Spirit. These gifts are described as the manifestation of the Spirit.

So, it is you that misunderstood me.

Old Regular tried to make the point that faith here is spoken of as a gift. And I agree, it is. But this is not the same as believeing faith to get saved. This is never spoken of as a gift, in fact, it is always spoken of as belonging to the person exercising it. I don't think I need to show the many verses that use terms like "your faith", "their faith", "thy faith" and so on.

The only verse where this believeing faith is spoken of as a gift, and this is a very controversial verse is Ephesians 2:8. Of course, nearly all Calvinists see faith as the gift spoken of in this verse, while many others believe the gift spoken of is grace, and others believe salvation is the gift. I am in agreement with those who believe salvation is the gift spoken of in Eph 2:8. So, this verse hardly proves your doctrine as many great scholars cannot agree on what precisely is the gift spoken of in this verse.

What I was trying to say, but you completely misunderstood me, is that if you want to argue the faith spoken of in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians is speaking of saving faith, then it would have to apply to all men. And it would.

 

[Winman]

If you want to argue that faith is a gift from God, then you have some problems. The Lord often rebuked his own disciples for lack of faith.

Matt 8:23 And when he was entered into a ship, his disciples followed him.
24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.
25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Now, I don't know how you explain this. If the disciple's faith were a gift from God, they could hardly be faulted for having little faith. They could have justly said to the Lord that they only had a little faith because that was all that was given them.

The scriptures show that Jesus was limited by people's unbelief. It also says he marvelled at the people's unbelief. This makes no sense if faith is a gift from God. Does God limit his own power?

Matt 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Mark 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Why would Jesus marvel at unbelief? If he did not give a person the gift of faith, the Lord would surely be aware of his own actions. How could he expect someone to have faith if he did not give it to them?

I could go on and on, there are many examples like this. It would not be reasonable for Jesus to rebuke people for lack of faith if they could only obtain it from him. The scriptures say Jesus marvelled at the centurion's great faith, but he also marvelled at other's unbelief. This does not make a bit of sense if faith is a gift from God. Why would Jesus marvel at his own actions?

Edit- Now, I will concede this. Faith could be a gift just as Calvinist's believe. But if so, it is not imposed on a man, and a man's cooperation with God is shown.

Matt 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Here, three men were given talents or money according to their abilities. The first two invested and made a profit. The third did not, and the talent given him was taken away and he was cast into outer darkness. They were all held responsible to use this money given them wisely.

Now, this could be speaking of faith, but if it is, it contradicts Calvinism, because it shows that the unsaved receive a measure of faith.
But I do not think this is speaking of faith, because the third man was fearful, he lacked faith. I believe this is speaking of the word of God, as in the parable of the sower.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

These verses show that the same promises are given to all, whether saved or unsaved. But the gospel did not profit the unsaved, not being mixed with faith. But it does say they heard it.

But it also warns people that they might also fail of receiving these promises. This shows that the believeing of these promises is in their control, and they are accountable. Notice it does not say faith was given them, it says "promise".

 

[OldRegular]

Returning to the truth expressed in the OP I am reminded of a passage of Scripture that my Father used to gently prod me with. A passage of Scripture that God used to guide me into an understanding of His Sovereign Purpose in Salvation, the Biblical Doctrines of Grace.

Acts 13:46-48, KJV
46. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Some modern translations use the words appointed to eternal life rather than ordained to eternal life.

 

[Winman]

Returning to the truth expressed in the OP I am reminded of a passage of Scripture that my Father used to gently prod me with. A passage of Scripture that God used to guide me into an understanding of His Sovereign Purpose in Salvation, the Biblical Doctrines of Grace.

Acts 13:46-48, KJV
46. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Some modern translations use the words appointed to eternal life rather than ordained to eternal life.

I believe that. I believe that all believers were ordained or appointed to eternal life. But I believe this was determined by God's foreknowledge. I believe God could see who would believe, and who would not, and chose or elected those who would believe to receive eternal life.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

This is not a difficult verse to understand. It says we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God, and then it explains what that is, those who are sanctified by the Spirit, and those who have obeyed the gospel and been sprinkled with the blood of Christ.

How are we sanctified? Through the word of God.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

God's word is also spirit and life.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So, you must hear and believe the word of God to be sanctified.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Ever wonder what the water was in John 3? Now you know, it is the word of God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You must first hear and believe the word of God to be born again and receive the Spirit.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[TomVols]

I suspect that most Baptists who participate on this Forum believe that those who are saved are saved by the Grace of GOD. Yet many of those same people say that they must make the final decision in their own salvation, the decision to accept the Grace of GOD.

However, if I make the final decision regarding my salvation does that not deny the truth of the Scripture that states: For by grace are ye saved.?

Yes. That's my problem with Arminianism. It places man squarely on the throne of his own life, responsible for his own salvation. Sorry, nothing is more foreign to the Word of God than this garbage. But those are the times in which we live. God's Word? Awww, who needs it. A sovereign God? Awww, come on, Oprah and Dr. Phil and easy believism says otherwise. God is responsible for salvation? Oh puhlease...I pulled myself up by my own bootstraps and cleaned myself up and straightened out my life and I and my and me me me me I I I.....oh by the way, thank God for making me...I'm so good. :tongue3:

 

[OldRegular]

Yes. That's my problem with Arminianism. It places man squarely on the throne of his own life, responsible for his own salvation. Sorry, nothing is more foreign to the Word of God than this garbage. But those are the times in which we live. God's Word? Awww, who needs it. A sovereign God? Awww, come on, Oprah and Dr. Phil and easy believism says otherwise. God is responsible for salvation? Oh puhlease...I pulled myself up by my own bootstraps and cleaned myself up and straightened out my life and I and my and me me me me I I I.....oh by the way, thank God for making me...I'm so good. :tongue3:

You make Arminians sound like Freewillers. Are they really the same?

 

[TomVols]

Good question :tongue3:
Actually, some will make all Reformed folks sound like a caricature of Calvinism. So I'm glad you picked up on my reverse analogy. Whether "freewillers" are actual Arminians could be debated.

Of course, remember that free will is mentioned in one of the best Reformed Baptist doctrinal statements, the Abstract of Principles.

 

[webdog]

Yes. That's my problem with Arminianism. It places man squarely on the throne of his own life, responsible for his own salvation. Sorry, nothing is more foreign to the Word of God than this garbage. But those are the times in which we live. God's Word? Awww, who needs it. A sovereign God? Awww, come on, Oprah and Dr. Phil and easy believism says otherwise. God is responsible for salvation? Oh puhlease...I pulled myself up by my own bootstraps and cleaned myself up and straightened out my life and I and my and me me me me I I I.....oh by the way, thank God for making me...I'm so good. :tongue3:

Strawman after strawman. Let me ask you this...when you receive a present at Christmas, does your accepting it make you sovereign in the whole process of picking out the gift, paying for it, wrapping it and giving it? When you receive it, do you pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, claim how you deserved the gift and ask the giver to thank you for being you? How much credit do you take?

Either calvinists are intellectually dishonest in this approach, or are willfully ignorant of the fact salvation is a gift.

 

[OldRegular]

Strawman after strawman. Let me ask you this...when you receive a present at Christmas, does your accepting it make you sovereign in the whole process of picking out the gift, paying for it, wrapping it and giving it? When you receive it, do you pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, claim how you deserved the gift and ask the giver to thank you for being you? How much credit do you take?
.

What does the above have to do with the Sovereignty of God in Salvation?

 

[webdog]

What does the above have to do with the Sovereignty of God in Salvation?

The fact you even have to ask is a reflection of the TULIP blinders.

 

[TomVols]

Let me ask you this...when you receive a present at Christmas, does your accepting it make you sovereign in the whole process of picking out the gift, paying for it, wrapping it and giving it? When you receive it, do you pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, claim how you deserved the gift and ask the giver to thank you for being you? How much credit do you take?

Here's where your analogy breaks down. It's not that I deserved the gift I unwrap at Christmas (like that Wii my wife is going to buy me, or that wishlist I have at CBD, or those new golf clubs ...... hey, would you email my wife a few hints?)) :smilewinkgrin: You've sliced your own throat here. If you simply analogized the reception of the gift, that's one thing. But by implication (actually, you came right out and said it), the Arminian way is to make humans the center of the whole transaction. Humans worked up the faith. Humans made the decision. God was just hoping someone would take him up on his offer, powerless to do anything about it....but alas, the all-powerful man or woman conjured up enough faith to bring about salvation. Therein the rub lies. That's precisely what you're arguing by implication, intentional or not. Salvation is produced by faith. From whence cometh faith? To those who are Reformed, they believe the Bible: it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8-10). To those on the other side, it is the work of humans, a product of their reasoning and affections. So then, I did pick the gift, wrapped it, and placed my own name on it under the tree. I see that happen with my in-laws. They pick their own gifts. They buy them and bring them home. Is this truly a gift? In the same way, is it truly a gift if I claim I was the one who exerted all the effort, or even the lion's share. I've never heard one Calvinist deny that salvation is a gift. I hear few Arminians who claim such. No one is denying a personal responsibility to repent and believe. It's when this becomes the orbit around which God must subject himself where I cry foul. I just don't believe in an impotent God. That's not the God of the Bible.

Now, my wife's email is....... :laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

TomVols

That's a :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by webdog
Strawman after strawman. Let me ask you this...when you receive a present at Christmas, does your accepting it make you sovereign in the whole process of picking out the gift, paying for it, wrapping it and giving it? When you receive it, do you pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, claim how you deserved the gift and ask the giver to thank you for being you? How much credit do you take?

Response Posted by OldRegular
What does the above have to do with the Sovereignty of God in Salvation?

The fact you even have to ask is a reflection of the TULIP blinders.

Thanks to TomVols for setting you straight!

 

[Allan]

Here's where your analogy breaks down. It's not that I deserved the gift I unwrap at Christmas

And this is where your false premise misconstrues everything that Webdog said.

Who has said, implied, or inferred that you 'deserve' the gift being given?
That is where you begin to fall short in understanding what Web is saying and it proves you aren't listening. Web stated:

When you receive it, do you pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, claim how you deserved the gift and ask the giver to thank you for being you?

Next you said:

You've sliced your own throat here.

Not true.

If you simply analogized the reception of the gift, that's one thing. But by implication (actually, you came right out and said it), the Arminian way is to make humans the center of the whole transaction.

Lets see if what you 'think' is being said is really what 'has and is' being said by those NOT Calvinistic.

Humans worked up the faith.

Nope, not even close or true in any way reflecting the view/belief of that not Calvinistic.
There is no need to 'work' up anything. Faith isn't even a 'work'.

Humans made the decision.

That is part of God's design. Men choose to believe or not.
Do you believe that you were saved without having to believe? If not then I guess you made the decision too :thumbs:

God was just hoping someone would take him up on his offer, powerless to do anything about it

This is purely childish, can we not try to go down this road?

No non-cal nor Arminianiam believes ANY such garbage.

....but alas, the all-powerful man or woman conjured up enough faith to bring about salvation.

God brings man to place of believing or not - not man. God is the intiator, and God is the bringer, God is the revealer, but God will not save a single person unless that person 'first' believes. Man has no power with respect to saving himself. The only thing that man is required to do is believe that God will do what He said - nothing more and nothing less. His believing isn't salvation, but believing is what God requires that He might save them.

That's precisely what you're arguing by implication, intentional or not. Salvation is produced by faith.

No, it is exactly the point that you have very little understanding of the non-cal or even the Arminian view.

From whence cometh faith? To those who are Reformed, they believe the Bible:

So far this has not been proven, in that your view is supossedly biblical verses others.

it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8-10).

Not even all of those of the Reformed position agrees with you here.
And by the way, Eph 2-8-10 can in no manner, in the Greek or English be used to presume faith is given to men because they do not have it.

To those on the other side, it is the work of humans, a product of their reasoning and affections.

Again, you are clueless to the argument of 'the other side' as well as scripture.
Faith is not a work - Rom 4:3-6
At the very least, please learn what others believe before you parading off a list of things that are even similar to the beliefs of those you assume to speak for.

So then, I did pick the gift, wrapped it, and placed my own name on it under the tree.

Hmm.. Scripture says that that you 'did' choose and that it was God's intended plan 'for you' to choose. Thus you have Puals pleading that when you hear the Spirit of the Lord, do not harden your heart. Or more specifically :
"as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts."

The gift is salvation and is stated as such repeated throughout the NT. Faith is not said to be of the same gifting.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Here Jesus is stating that God is offering her a 'gift' and if she knew what it was, she was ask to receive it.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Here the Holy Ghost (His indwelling) is synonomous with salvation and both are illistrated as a 'gift' being offered to those who will receive it.
Romans 5 speaks specifically of the gift of God being salvation.
It is in 1 Cor. that we see Paul speaking of certain blessing given to each member of the body of Christ (gifts) and yet not every one has the same gifts. Some might and others might not. There is no one gifting of these indivdual gifting for 'the churches growth and stability' that all believers have (1 Cor 12). And 'these' giftings are given 'AFTER' salvation.

Eph 2:89 states that it is by grace you are saved through faith - not only according to the verse but the surrounding contexts dicate that the emphasis here is - salvation.

Scripture is consistant and abundantly clear - the gift, is always refering to salvation itself (whether by implication or actual statement) unless it is refering to a gifting given to a believer after their salvation for the growth and encouraging of the Church body.

I see that happen with my in-laws. They pick their own gifts. They buy them and bring them home. Is this truly a gift?

See, this shows the lack of understanding of the issues or beliefs of others here. This isn't in any way what web or others are refering to. Actaully it is the exact opposite of what Webdog said:

when you receive a present at Christmas, does your accepting it make you sovereign in the whole process of picking out the gift, paying for it, wrapping it and giving it? When you receive it, do you pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, claim how you deserved the gift and ask the giver to thank you for being you? How much credit do you take?

Thus far it appears you have failed to give even a partially decent understanding of what non-cals and Arminians believe. Now do you see why it is so hard to talk to some of you guys. (and I'm sure it is much the same when you speak to others who claim to know what you believe and can't seem give even a basic rendition of it)

I just don't believe in an impotent God. That's not the God of the Bible.

Good, then you must agree 100% with the devout Arminians and Non-Cals as well. It is good to see you coming around to the truth

 

[Shortandy]

Strawman after strawman. Let me ask you this...when you receive a present at Christmas, does your accepting it make you sovereign in the whole process of picking out the gift, paying for it, wrapping it and giving it? When you receive it, do you pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, claim how you deserved the gift and ask the giver to thank you for being you? How much credit do you take?

Either calvinists are intellectually dishonest in this approach, or are willfully ignorant of the fact salvation is a gift.

This is true...your analogy makes God sovereign in the whole process except for one are....the distribution of the gift. Your analogy has God's hands tied with who gets it and who doesn't. Your analogy has God waiting to see what man will do. In that respect you have made man more sovereign than God.

I believe that is where your opponents are coming from.

Just an observation.

 

[OldRegular]

God brings man to place of believing or not - not man. God is the intiator, and God is the bringer, God is the revealer, but God will not save a single person unless that person 'first' believes. Man has no power with respect to saving himself. The only thing that man is required to do is believe that God will do what He said - nothing more and nothing less. His believing isn't salvation, but believing is what God requires that He might save them.

The above statement is illogical and contradictory. You say that:

Man has no power with respect to saving himself.

Which contradicts the following:

The only thing that man is required to do is believe that God will do what He said - nothing more and nothing less. His believing isn't salvation, but believing is what God requires that He might save them.

So according to your rationale man does have power with respect to saving himself.

 

[OldRegular]

This is true...your analogy makes God sovereign in the whole process except for one are....the distribution of the gift. Your analogy has God's hands tied with who gets it and who doesn't. Your analogy has God waiting to see what man will do. In that respect you have made man more sovereign than God.

I believe that is where your opponents are coming from.

Just an observation.

A very perceptive observation!:thumbsup::thumbsup: