? for former Catholics

[CatholicConvert]

So you are cannibals? Think about it... would Jesus really wants us to eat his body? It is a symbol.

No, YOU think about this: Why would the very first Christian leaders of the Church, called the Early Fathers, write as early as AD135, hardly 100 years after the Lord was crucified, that the elements are indeed the Flesh and Blood of our Lord? WHERE do you think they learned that from?

And where is the Baptistic understanding of the Eucharist being just a shadow without any reality? There is absolutely no evidence from Church history that any other doctrine existed than what the Catholic Church teaches. There were no councils to discuss it, no writings defending the Baptistic position -- NOTHING!!!

Whyizzat?!?

The reason that Jesus takes the place of the bread and wine can be found in this verse:

Le 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.


Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The LIFE is in the Blood. John 6:53 shows us that when we receive Jesus in the Eucharist, we are receiving His life, which is eternal life. We are made righteous, our sins are forgiven, and we partake of union with Him in the deepest possible intimacy.

Just as Adam condemned us all by our union with His flesh (Rom. 5:12), we must be in union with the Flesh of Jesus to be justified. Since Jesus will not be having children after the flesh, there must be a way that we can unite with His Flesh. The Eucharist is that means.

You also forget about the typological fit. The Hebrews, after offering a sacrifice, sat down and ate that which had been offered. We do the same with the Lamb of God, offered for the sins of the world.

And finally, denial of the Real Presence in the Eucharist is a denial of the Incarnation. God came to earth in the flesh of a human baby, and He remains on earth in the form of bread and wine, changed to His Flesh and Blood by the action of the Holy Spirit. Just as the Holy Spirit placed Christ within the Blessed Virgin by a miracle, so He also replaces the bread and wine with the Flesh and Blood by a miracle.

You accept the one, why not the other?

Cordially in disagreement,

Brother Ed

 

[Promise]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert
And finally, denial of the Real Presence in the Eucharist is a denial of the Incarnation. God came to earth in the flesh of a human baby, and He remains on earth in the form of bread and wine, changed to His Flesh and Blood by the action of the Holy Spirit. Just as the Holy Spirit placed Christ within the Blessed Virgin by a miracle, so He also replaces the bread and wine with the Flesh and Blood by a miracle.

First of all I do not deny by any means at all that Jesus was manifested in the flesh, he was justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Changing the water to wine was a miracle for people to believe in who he was...but your accusations of him changing the bread and wine into his actual body and blood is ludicrous. Why do you think that before any Jew could eat meat they had to drain the blood out of the meat. Blood represents life...we are not to eat blood...by you saying that the wine is turned to blood and to Jesus blood is the very thing that Jesus forbids us to do. That is not in the teachings of the bible. I would have to say false teachings in the catholic church.

 

[wishtolearn]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
But I trust my intellect and common sense

This is the essence of Western autonomy. "I" can do it by myself. That is not what the Church is. We are not Lone Rangers for Jesus. We are a family and as a family depend upon each other. Those of us who are younger in the faith should look to those who have been in it for numerous years and are elders in the faith for spritual guidance and direction.

Personally, if my spiritual director, who is a holy and godly man of more than 50 years in the faith, were to tell me that it would be good for me to stand on my head and recite the Lord's Prayer every morning -- I WOULD LISTEN TO HIM!!!

As for the left handed insult against the Church, you need to separate the teachings of the Church, which are infallible in the areas of morals and doctrine, from the personal failures of people in the Church, which has NOTHING to do with the established standards of morality and doctrine in the Church.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

You go ahead and do whatever you need to do to believe in the Catholic Church. Separate whatever you want to. The question was originally asked and I answered. Why do you have a personal problem with my beliefs. I could care less about your belief system. I wouldn't try to change you. But you can't have a conversation without people seeing things your way and your way only. The Catholic Church is wonderful for those who desire or require it. I don't doubt that. I also doubt that the scandal surrounding it at this time will bring it down. The Church is about the people, not the priests. However, the insistance of certain ARchbishops to hide and deny what is going on is what turns my stomach. That, my friend, is not infallable behavior. It is criminal. That said. You go on with your love for the Church, and I'll go on with my beliefs. But I think if you are putting that much faith in a man such as your priest/spiritual advisor that you will do anything he tells you to, you're setting yourself up for a potential rude awakening. People are not to be followed, God is. I'll go on with my crazy Western thinking for myself, thank you.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Okay. Let me back off a bit. I realize that you, unlike some who are here, are not attacking the Catholic Faith. For this, I do thank you.

I'm sure that you realize that as a recent convert, I tend to be rather enthusiastic about what I have found in the Catholic Faith. Sometimes that enthusiasm can make me intemperate.

I would hope that you might someday find a way to return to the Catholic Faith. I really do believe that while you indeed have much truth where you are, the fullness and richness of the Faith is in that Church headed by St. Peter.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[wishtolearn]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
But I trust my intellect and common sense

This is the essence of Western autonomy. "I" can do it by myself. That is not what the Church is. We are not Lone Rangers for Jesus. We are a family and as a family depend upon each other. Those of us who are younger in the faith should look to those who have been in it for numerous years and are elders in the faith for spritual guidance and direction.

Personally, if my spiritual director, who is a holy and godly man of more than 50 years in the faith, were to tell me that it would be good for me to stand on my head and recite the Lord's Prayer every morning -- I WOULD LISTEN TO HIM!!!

As for the left handed insult against the Church, you need to separate the teachings of the Church, which are infallible in the areas of morals and doctrine, from the personal failures of people in the Church, which has NOTHING to do with the established standards of morality and doctrine in the Church.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

Left handed insult? You act as if I were spreading around obnoxious gossip. The "scandal" in the Church is a very real and disgusting thing. To act any other way puts one in the same group as the priests who performed these acts. I could have been much harsh in my wording, but I wasn't.

 

[wishtolearn]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Okay. Let me back off a bit. I realize that you, unlike some who are here, are not attacking the Catholic Faith. For this, I do thank you.

I'm sure that you realize that as a recent convert, I tend to be rather enthusiastic about what I have found in the Catholic Faith. Sometimes that enthusiasm can make me intemperate.

I would hope that you might someday find a way to return to the Catholic Faith. I really do believe that while you indeed have much truth where you are, the fullness and richness of the Faith is in that Church headed by St. Peter.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

Again, I am happy for you. I understand your enthusiasm for the Church, I just don't share it. It does not make either one of us right or wrong. Just different from one another.

 

[Promise]

Catholicconvert:

hummmm no response to my reply...hey that is ok...life does go on....have a good one...

 

[GraceSaves]

Promise,

You said that they had to drain the blood, and good not "eat" it, etc, etc, etc.

But, even as symbolic, we are told specifically to "drink his blood."

"This is my blood . . . drink of it all of you."

"Unless you eat his body . . . and drink his blood, you have no life in you."

If the notion of eating Christ's flesh and blood is so appalling and wrong, why would Christ even bother to talk of it symbolically? In fact, if it is evil to take it literally, how does that justify believing in it symbolically? As you said yourself, the very notion is crazy.

 

[Promise]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Promise,

You said that they had to drain the blood, and good not "eat" it, etc, etc, etc.

But, even as symbolic, we are told specifically to "drink his blood."

"This is my blood . . . drink of it all of you."

"Unless you eat his body . . . and drink his blood, you have no life in you."

If the notion of eating Christ's flesh and blood is so appalling and wrong, why would Christ even bother to talk of it symbolically? In fact, if it is evil to take it literally, how does that justify believing in it symbolically? As you said yourself, the very notion is crazy.

The blood represents life...we are not to eat blood....In partaking of the communion the wine represents blood which represents life...the wine is not blood...it is wine....the bread is not flesh....the bread is food....the bread is the word...Jesus is the Word...the bread gives us food for our soul.....it is all symbolic...Jesus would never want us to do something he tells us not to do...eating flesh of humans is cannibalistic....drinking of blood or eating of blood is wrong....read your OT....and believing of it symbolically is this that what you are doing is at every communion you are feeding and bringing back life into your soul...keeps you one with Christ...

[ April 18, 2002, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Promise ]

 

[CatholicConvert]

Promise --

The Blood does not merely represent life. Read the verses I posted again. The life of the flesh IS IN THE BLOOD!!!

Blood is life. The life (force) of the flesh is in the blood. That is why we are condemned with Adam, because we share that fleshly relationship with Him.

But we cannot share in Christ's flesh in the natural way of birth. Therefore, to share in His life, we must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. As the Scripture says, if we do not do this, we do not have eternal life. Those who eat His Flesh and drink His Blood HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. We have it because we have Him when we do so. It is the only way to get Jesus into ourselves and unite our flesh with His Flesh.

He doesn't live within us unless we do this.

Cordially in disagreement,

Brother Ed

PS...stop gittin' yer knickers in a knot if'n I don't respond immediately. I have a life outside of the Internet!!

 

[wishtolearn]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
[QB]Promise --

The Blood does not merely represent life. Read the verses I posted again. The life of the flesh IS IN THE BLOOD!!!

Blood is life. The life (force) of the flesh is in the blood. That is why we are condemned with Adam, because we share that fleshly relationship with Him.

But we cannot share in Christ's flesh in the natural way of birth. Therefore, to share in His life, we must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. As the Scripture says, if we do not do this, we do not have eternal life. Those who eat His Flesh and drink His Blood HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. We have it because we have Him when we do so. It is the only way to get Jesus into ourselves and unite our flesh with His Flesh.

He doesn't live within us unless we do this.

Cordially in disagreement,

Brother Ed

I'm sorry. But do you know how ridiculous this sounds. You are making the Catholic habit of sharing in the Eucharist out to sound like some freaked-out vampire ritual.

Let's assume someone is born non-Catholic. They never become Catholic. They are Christian and believe in Christ and his Resurrection, but never "eat his flesh and drink his blood". Are you saying that they will not have eternal life because they did not partake in this particular religion's ritual? You've got to be joking. What did Jesus die on the cross for if not to save our sorry selves? This act itself may lead you to quote a lot of Scripture, but please stick to the "eating of flesh and drinking of blood" bit. No wonder atheists don't want to become believers. This must sound really wacked out to them! Jeesh!

 

[GraceSaves]

John 6:

52 The Jews therefore contended among themselves, saying, How can he give us this flesh to eat? 53 Jesus therefore said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Unless ye shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of man, and drunk his blood, ye have no life in yourselves. 54 He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood has life eternal, and I will raise him up at the last day: 55 for my flesh is truly food and my blood is truly drink. 56 He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood dwells in me and I in him. 57 As the living Father has sent me and I live on account of the Father, *he* also who eats me shall live also on account of me. 58 This is the bread which has come down out of heaven. Not as the fathers ate and died: he that eats this bread shall live for ever. 59 These things he said in [the] synagogue, teaching in Capernaum. 60 Many therefore of his disciples having heard [it] said, This word is hard; who can hear it? 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmur concerning this, said to them, Does this offend you?

He paraphrased Scripture. Enough said.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by wishtolearn:
No wonder atheists don't want to become believers. This must sound really wacked out to them! Jeesh!

Way to use this discussion as a means of personal attack. The whole notion of God sounds "wacked out." I mean, three persons, but one God? A God that had a son, and whom DIED bloodily?

How dare you attack a Catholic belief that you don't agree with by this means. If I was an atheist, I'd be much more turned off by your attitude towards the fellow Christian than his or her beliefs.

God is eternal. God is all powerful. God is mysterious. We can't explain him away. We don't understand all his actions. He is awesome and wonderful, and therefore we are in awe and wonder of what he does for us on a daily basis.

Because you don't believe in something and is weird, again, how dare you use it as a means of saying Catholics turn people AWAY from God. How dare you.

 

[wishtolearn]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wishtolearn:
No wonder atheists don't want to become believers. This must sound really wacked out to them! Jeesh!

Way to use this discussion as a means of personal attack. The whole notion of God sounds "wacked out." I mean, three persons, but one God? A God that had a son, and whom DIED bloodily?

How dare you attack a Catholic belief that you don't agree with by this means. If I was an atheist, I'd be much more turned off by your attitude towards the fellow Christian than his or her beliefs.

I've had atheists agree with me on my belief system because I don't try to shove something down their throats. I wouldn't call it an attack but a strong disagreement in deciphering of words.

God is eternal. God is all powerful. God is mysterious. We can't explain him away. We don't understand all his actions. He is awesome and wonderful, and therefore we are in awe and wonder of what he does for us on a daily basis.

I completely agree with what you are saying here and do not question it for a second.

Because you don't believe in something and is weird, again, how dare you use it as a means of saying Catholics turn people AWAY from God. How dare you.</font>[/QUOTE]I'm not saying all Catholics, just this particular one.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Let's assume someone is born non-Catholic. They never become Catholic. They are Christian and believe in Christ and his Resurrection, but never "eat his flesh and drink his blood". Are you saying that they will not have eternal life because they did not partake in this particular religion's ritual?

As I said -- to become one with Christ in organic unity, you must enter into a "one flesh" relationship with Him which is similar to the "one flesh" relationship of a man and woman in marriage. That is why the Church is described as the Bride of Christ. He is the heavenly groom who wants to enter into us (you clear on this or do I have to spell it out for you?) in the deepest possible intimacy. The marital bed is but a very poor shadow of the true reality of organic unity with Christ which He desires. Why do you think that He made marriage in this way and then called it a "one flesh" relationship? It is an earthly reality which speaks of heavenly truth (Heb. 8:5).

Study the Scriptures. There is a real correlation between sexuality and spirituality. That is why spiritual unfaithfulness is called HARLOTRY. You ever think of that? You ever try putting it into that context? Our unity in physical intimacy is a picture of the unity we have with Christ in Heaven. But it is a poor picture, for our unity with Him will be complete and immesureable beyond anything you can either understand or believe.

And there is simply no way of sharing in His Flesh but the Eucharist, since He is not going to have children of the flesh. We share in Adam's flesh by our nature and by that nature we are condemned. (Rom. 5:12). Therefore we must share in the flesh of the Last Adam (1 Corin. 15:45) to reverse the effects of our unity with the first Adam. Do you see that principle? Now you tell me how we are going to do it.

You've got to be joking. What did Jesus die on the cross for if not to save our sorry selves?

He died on the Cross for the Church, which is His Bride. As God brought forth from Adam a bride of his riven side, so God brought forth a Bride for the Son out of the Son's riven side. The sacrifice becomes ours only as we enter into the life of the Bride by baptism. And that death is for your sins only in the context of your relationship to the Church. Through our participation in the Church we have the access to this eternal once and for all sacrifice that we may apply to our sins as we need. (1 John 1:9)

This act itself may lead you to quote a lot of Scripture, but please stick to the "eating of flesh and drinking of blood" bit.

It is called exegesis. It is the same thing you have to do in proving the Trinity. You cannot just go to any Scripture which talks directly about the Trinity because no such Scripture exists. Therefore you exegete. Same thing with the Eucharist. The whole of Scripture is filled with reasons why it must be the REAL Flesh and Blood of the Lord.

No wonder atheists don't want to become believers. This must sound really wacked out to them! Jeesh!

Atheists don't want to become believers because they are, as Scripture says in Romans 1, god haters. My descriptions are just a mirror of what the first Christians told the world and look at how Christianity spread over all the world in just 1000 years!! Your little accusation holds no water at all.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[wishtolearn]

You're saying he died on the cross for the Church? The Catholic Church only I'm assuming? Guess the rest of the world's population is S.O.L aren't they? You've really got your work cut out for you then.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Not only am I saying that, but that is what the Early Fathers said also. This idea of a "me and Jesus" autonomous salvation outside of the corporate Body which is Christ was never known until Luther and Calvin started the Protestant Rebellion.

Salvation is being IN CHRIST. It is really that simple. If you are in Christ, you are safe. If you are out of Christ or if you leave Christ, you are in serious deep weeds.

The Judgement Seat of Christ is where we will find out who has been a kingdom member and who has not. Or...actually better said, it will determine for me whether I have been a faithful covenant member and keeper of the covenant. Likewise for each other individual who ever lives. We will not really be concerned with the judgement of others.

So the real question is this: are you IN CHRIST? If you have been baptized into Him, yup....you are part of the Church, even if you do not recognize the head of the Church here on earth nor agree with all its teachings.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[Promise]

CatholicConvert, So it is true that you believe that Jesus only died for the Catholic Church?

wishtolearn asked you this:
You're saying he died on the cross for the Church? The Catholic Church only I'm assuming? Guess the rest of the world's population is S.O.L aren't they? You've really got your work cut out for you then.
Your response was:
Not only am I saying that, but that is what the Early Fathers said also.

Must be nice to know that only the Catholic Church members will be going to heaven......I guess I will be lost forever and ever and ever....

 

[wishtolearn]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Not only am I saying that, but that is what the Early Fathers said also. This idea of a "me and Jesus" autonomous salvation outside of the corporate Body which is Christ was never known until Luther and Calvin started the Protestant Rebellion.

Salvation is being IN CHRIST. It is really that simple. If you are in Christ, you are safe. If you are out of Christ or if you leave Christ, you are in serious deep weeds.

The Judgement Seat of Christ is where we will find out who has been a kingdom member and who has not. Or...actually better said, it will determine for me whether I have been a faithful covenant member and keeper of the covenant. Likewise for each other individual who ever lives. We will not really be concerned with the judgement of others.

So the real question is this: are you IN CHRIST? If you have been baptized into Him, yup....you are part of the Church, even if you do not recognize the head of the Church here on earth nor agree with all its teachings.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

I may question a lot of things about the current state of my life but one thing I don't question is my relationship with Jesus. I have been baptized, in the Catholic Church I might add, when I was a baby. Don't remember it of course so I don't know how much it really meant to me. Parents just doing what they were told to I guess. Baptism or not, my relationship with Jesus is mine that was developed with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:

So the real question is this: are you IN CHRIST? If you have been baptized into Him, yup....you are part of the Church, even if you do not recognize the head of the Church here on earth nor agree with all its teachings.

Gotta love this! I mean, the unbelieving atheist, pedophile, murderer and rapist will be in heaven before me (if I was not baptized) just because they were baptized by the RCC!!!

Well, I guess I am still ok by this standard as I had an unbelievers baptism when I was 8 days old...even though it meant nothing to me or my family (they are not believers, just catholics).

More to the point, I will not trust this interpetation with my enternal destination. I think I will trust Jesus and put all my faith in Him, not the church. Much simpler that way.

In (Yes, Yes I am) Christ,
jason

PS. You have now stated that a believer is not going to heaven if he/she is not baptized into Jesus. This includes the person who repents and comes to Christ on his/her deathbed, the person who recognizes the holy spirit and comes to Christ and is not baptized, or the baby who died before baptism. Any situation where they cannot be baptized before death, you have just condemned them to hell. I am so glad God does not work that way.