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For SDA's on Sunday worship
- Thread starter thessalonian
- Start date
thessalonian
New Member
Bob,
How old are you? Early teens?
Is worshipping on Sunday rather than Saturday taking the mark or not?
I love your tactic of trying to paint "faith explained" as agreeing with you. I quite well understand that book as I happen to have it and have read it. But I am not going to turn this thread in to one of your ridiculous straw men. It is about Protestants who worship on Sunday. Ellen G. says they have taken the Mark. It's history Bob. We disagree about what the MofB is but will there be people with the MofB on them in heaven? You say yes. I doudt you can support that with scripture.
Blessings though
How old are you? Early teens?
Is worshipping on Sunday rather than Saturday taking the mark or not?
I love your tactic of trying to paint "faith explained" as agreeing with you. I quite well understand that book as I happen to have it and have read it. But I am not going to turn this thread in to one of your ridiculous straw men. It is about Protestants who worship on Sunday. Ellen G. says they have taken the Mark. It's history Bob. We disagree about what the MofB is but will there be people with the MofB on them in heaven? You say yes. I doudt you can support that with scripture.
Blessings though
thessalonian
New Member
Bob,
Let's rephrase the question a bit. In the end times when the AnitChrist appears on this earth, will those who worship on Sunday be labeled with the MOB and go to hell, including Protestants who continue to worship on Sunday?
Let's rephrase the question a bit. In the end times when the AnitChrist appears on this earth, will those who worship on Sunday be labeled with the MOB and go to hell, including Protestants who continue to worship on Sunday?
Downsville
New Member
Hay Awl,
Original question-For our SDA Friends out there. Namely Bob, are Protestants who worship on Sunday going to hell.
Im not an SDA but the WORD says these people will be judged by their works(the commandments dealing with actions with mankind)at the end of the 1000 yr period of rest.
Original question-For our SDA Friends out there. Namely Bob, are Protestants who worship on Sunday going to hell.
Im not an SDA but the WORD says these people will be judged by their works(the commandments dealing with actions with mankind)at the end of the 1000 yr period of rest.
tamborine lady
Active Member
Hi there gb93433,
You quoted Acts 20-7. No, sorry, that one won't work.
Lets look at the whole scripture, Acts 20-7 thru 11.
7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.
9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
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Verse 7 says : And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread.
Now, you have to remember that the Sabbath started on fri nite at 6 P.M. and ENDS sat nite at 6 P.M. Verse 7 also says they came together to break bread. So when they came together on the "1 st day of the week" it was just after 6 P.M.on sat nite! After the Sabbath is celebrated, then they eat. The Sabbath was over, but it was still sat nite.
The rest of that verse is: Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. ( From a little after 6 P.M. to midnight). The reason he preached some more, after the Sabbath was over, is because he was leaving, and had a lot more to tell them.
Then the young man fell out of the window, and they all ran down and Paul prayed , and God restored him and then----
Acts 20- 11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
So then they ate some more,and ate and talked a long time until it got to be daylight. So he departed.
He left on sunday morning, he did not start preaching on sunday morning!
So I still worship on the Sabbath(Sat).
Working for Jesus,
Tam,
The official Adventist teaching now, from what I have seen, is that Sunday will become the mark of the Beast, when it becomes the issue of prophetic events. In other words, it is not now the mark of the Beast, but the Churches of the world, both Catholic and Protestant, will one day begin to unite against secularism, and Sunday will become one of the common points of distinction that will be enforced in a re-Christianized America (the second beast). Then it will be identified as the Mark of the Beast.
While this makes some significant points that I agree with, still, I do not believe that Sunday will be the main issue. As I say on my commentary of Revelation:
Several times in the prophecy of Revelation, the faithful, such as those with the seal of God, are said to be those who keep the "commandments of God, and the faith/testimony of Jesus". And this is contrasted with the mark of the Beast. So the Sabbathkeepers have the right idea when they say that this mark of the beast will involve some point of SIN. But they have the wrong issue of what "sin" it will be. This main 'issue of the ages' cannot be the Sabbath-Sunday dispute over 'days' of worship. In the New Testament, the Sabbath and other Old Testament CEREMONIAL 'commandments' are NEVER the issue regarding sin and obedience to God. Yes, it may have been included in the original 10 Commandments, but as those other commandments actually changed in application (Matthew 5), so the spirit of the fourth commandment is resting in Jesus (Matt.11:28-30, Hebrews 4). Yet, it's trusting in Jesus plus the other commandments— not worshiping false gods or idols, blasphemy, killing, adultery, stealing, lying or even the covetousness (lust) that leads us to these things that are clearly emphasized. These are the only things that are mentioned in Revelation and other prophecies as bringing the wrath of God on humanity, not days of worship (except in the Old Covenant when He was dealing specifically with Israel).
See also Sabbath and the Faith of Abraham for further discussion.
Ellen G. White probably said that it definitely WAS the mark, becaure, remember, they thought Christ was coming back that year (1843 or 44), or at least shortly after, and that Sunday was already the main issue of allegiance. But now this country and the rest of the West is so secularized, I don't see how the churches will be able to rise and get everyone to obey Sunday laws. The worst the [corrupt] Churches will be able to do is back the political leaders involved and sway their followers or others under their influence (based on a political agenda couched in a veneer of morality, and nationalism/patriotism, "personal freedom", God as national mascot, etc. and whatever else people think is a "Christian" agenda. To be fair, the liberal Churches will also sway their followers with their agendas). These are the main issues of politics today (including that mixed with religion); not days of worship. Rome may bear more power in the countries where it is stronger, but not here in America.
To me, this issue is just like the Fundamentalist issues of music styles, KJV only, and degrees of "separation". People rise up in the church claiming others are neglecting some point of "true Christian" or "biblical" practice. Now, we won't say they are not saved (going to hell), yet still, they are "living in disobedience", and must be "reproved, rebuked, exhorted", etc. The fundies are often very hard on Adventists (some do say they are an unsaved "cult"), yet they are doing the same things with different issues.
While this makes some significant points that I agree with, still, I do not believe that Sunday will be the main issue. As I say on my commentary of Revelation:
Several times in the prophecy of Revelation, the faithful, such as those with the seal of God, are said to be those who keep the "commandments of God, and the faith/testimony of Jesus". And this is contrasted with the mark of the Beast. So the Sabbathkeepers have the right idea when they say that this mark of the beast will involve some point of SIN. But they have the wrong issue of what "sin" it will be. This main 'issue of the ages' cannot be the Sabbath-Sunday dispute over 'days' of worship. In the New Testament, the Sabbath and other Old Testament CEREMONIAL 'commandments' are NEVER the issue regarding sin and obedience to God. Yes, it may have been included in the original 10 Commandments, but as those other commandments actually changed in application (Matthew 5), so the spirit of the fourth commandment is resting in Jesus (Matt.11:28-30, Hebrews 4). Yet, it's trusting in Jesus plus the other commandments— not worshiping false gods or idols, blasphemy, killing, adultery, stealing, lying or even the covetousness (lust) that leads us to these things that are clearly emphasized. These are the only things that are mentioned in Revelation and other prophecies as bringing the wrath of God on humanity, not days of worship (except in the Old Covenant when He was dealing specifically with Israel).
See also Sabbath and the Faith of Abraham for further discussion.
Ellen G. White probably said that it definitely WAS the mark, becaure, remember, they thought Christ was coming back that year (1843 or 44), or at least shortly after, and that Sunday was already the main issue of allegiance. But now this country and the rest of the West is so secularized, I don't see how the churches will be able to rise and get everyone to obey Sunday laws. The worst the [corrupt] Churches will be able to do is back the political leaders involved and sway their followers or others under their influence (based on a political agenda couched in a veneer of morality, and nationalism/patriotism, "personal freedom", God as national mascot, etc. and whatever else people think is a "Christian" agenda. To be fair, the liberal Churches will also sway their followers with their agendas). These are the main issues of politics today (including that mixed with religion); not days of worship. Rome may bear more power in the countries where it is stronger, but not here in America.
To me, this issue is just like the Fundamentalist issues of music styles, KJV only, and degrees of "separation". People rise up in the church claiming others are neglecting some point of "true Christian" or "biblical" practice. Now, we won't say they are not saved (going to hell), yet still, they are "living in disobedience", and must be "reproved, rebuked, exhorted", etc. The fundies are often very hard on Adventists (some do say they are an unsaved "cult"), yet they are doing the same things with different issues.
Rev 13:15-17 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
As the above scriptures point out, there is no mark of the beast, until all are forced to worship the beast. The mark of the beast, is connected to the worship of the beast. No one has the mark of the beast now, because there is not yet any type of forced worship on a worldwide scale. The issue however, is specific. The issue is worship. Will we worship God, or will we worship the beast?
Rev 14:6-7 6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:9-10 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Again, in the above verses, we see that the central issue is worship. There are those who will fear God and worship Him, and those who will fear and worship the beast. Those who worship God are instructed to worship Him who made heaven, and earth, and sea, and the fountains of waters. Does this command sound familiar, well it should. It is the heart of the fourth commandment.
Exod 20:8-11 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The fourth commandment points out who it is that we are to worship, and wouldn’t you know it, it is He who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. The fourth commandment is an exact reference, and command to worship exactly who the angel in revelation is telling us to worship just before, and during the time that the beast is demanding the worlds worship. Wow, what a coincidence. Or is it?
Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
After telling the world to worship the creator, and not to worship the beast, verse twelve goes on to say that the saints keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus.
So lets see. The whole issue is worship, that is, who will we worship. One angel tells us to worship the God of creation, which is exactly what the fourth commandment tells us to do, even what day to do it on. The other angel tells us not to worship the beast, or we will receive the judgments of God. Then the scriptures tell us that the difference between those who worship the beast, and those who worship God, is that those who worship God keep the commandments, and have the faith of Jesus.
There is only one commandment that the vast majority of Christendom does not keep. Wouldn’t you know it, it is the fourth commandment, the very one that tells us to worship Him who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them.
This is the commandment that will make the difference. It is specifically about worshiping the creator. It is the most widely rejected of God’s commandments, even among those who claim to worship the very one who instituted it at creation. They choose rather to observe a man made day of worship, thus putting humanity above God, whom the beast power itself represents. That is, humanity in rebellion against God.
Just as Cain, though he worshiped God, would not give the sacrifice that God required, but choosing his own instead. So too, do many who claim to worship God, choose their own day of worship over that one which God has required. Offering up the works of their own hands, just like Cain, instead of the works of God, which He ordained, and He supplies the power to observe through faith. Faith is believing God, and therefore obeying, and following his commands, not our own. Do not bring your own works before God as an offering, for they are filthy rags to Him.
Rom 8:3-7 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 7:14 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
As the above scriptures point out, there is no mark of the beast, until all are forced to worship the beast. The mark of the beast, is connected to the worship of the beast. No one has the mark of the beast now, because there is not yet any type of forced worship on a worldwide scale. The issue however, is specific. The issue is worship. Will we worship God, or will we worship the beast?
Rev 14:6-7 6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:9-10 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Again, in the above verses, we see that the central issue is worship. There are those who will fear God and worship Him, and those who will fear and worship the beast. Those who worship God are instructed to worship Him who made heaven, and earth, and sea, and the fountains of waters. Does this command sound familiar, well it should. It is the heart of the fourth commandment.
Exod 20:8-11 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The fourth commandment points out who it is that we are to worship, and wouldn’t you know it, it is He who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. The fourth commandment is an exact reference, and command to worship exactly who the angel in revelation is telling us to worship just before, and during the time that the beast is demanding the worlds worship. Wow, what a coincidence. Or is it?
Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
After telling the world to worship the creator, and not to worship the beast, verse twelve goes on to say that the saints keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus.
So lets see. The whole issue is worship, that is, who will we worship. One angel tells us to worship the God of creation, which is exactly what the fourth commandment tells us to do, even what day to do it on. The other angel tells us not to worship the beast, or we will receive the judgments of God. Then the scriptures tell us that the difference between those who worship the beast, and those who worship God, is that those who worship God keep the commandments, and have the faith of Jesus.
There is only one commandment that the vast majority of Christendom does not keep. Wouldn’t you know it, it is the fourth commandment, the very one that tells us to worship Him who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them.
This is the commandment that will make the difference. It is specifically about worshiping the creator. It is the most widely rejected of God’s commandments, even among those who claim to worship the very one who instituted it at creation. They choose rather to observe a man made day of worship, thus putting humanity above God, whom the beast power itself represents. That is, humanity in rebellion against God.
Just as Cain, though he worshiped God, would not give the sacrifice that God required, but choosing his own instead. So too, do many who claim to worship God, choose their own day of worship over that one which God has required. Offering up the works of their own hands, just like Cain, instead of the works of God, which He ordained, and He supplies the power to observe through faith. Faith is believing God, and therefore obeying, and following his commands, not our own. Do not bring your own works before God as an offering, for they are filthy rags to Him.
Rom 8:3-7 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 7:14 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
tamborine lady
Active Member
I have just learned something from this thread of immeasurable importance. One may not keep the sabbath and be saved. I am so glad to know this truth.
Would you rephrase that please?
Because I honestly do not understand what you meant!
Tam
I'm sorry, but something that will become so important will not hinge on something drawn on such inferential means. Yes, the issue will be whether one worships God, or something else, but the prophecies do not tie it to a day of worship, so to be true to scripture, neither can we. If the Sabbath was the issue, the prophecies would come right out and say so (as well as the rest of the NT). Not, "the issue will be worship, and only one commandment tells us who to worship, so that's it". The Bible is much more clear, direct and straightforward than that on issues that are seen as essential.
The reason there is so much ridiculous dissension in the church, is because people have to read things into scriptures like this (often pasted together from various places), instead of just letting the scriptures speak for themselves; and this in order to claim other Christians are somehow sinning.
Once again, I explained above that the fourth commandment today is resting in Jesus. In this sense can you identify it as the main issue involving whether we will follow God or man, keep the "commandments of God and faith of Jesus", and the one the world (including many Christians, often) fails at. 666 is man following his "carnal mind" (he phren), not a day of worship. There is just not enough evidence in Revelation of the rest of the NT for madated Sabbath observance, and too much that argues against it (such as Rom.14:5-6). Please read the link in the prior post.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Rev 12 makes it clear that the distinguishing mark of the saints - is that they are those who "Keep the Commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus" Rev 12:17. The idea that this statement is just too "vague" is hard to argue.
Christ - in His PRE-cross statement of John 14 says of the PRE-cross commandments "IF you love me KEEP My commandments".
Again - arguing that the pre-cross concept of the commandments of God would have been "just too vague" to His first century - first-order audience and that they would be confused by that term --- is not supportable.
Even the Pope in Dies Domini admits that the Pre-Cross fact of the 10 commandments and even the Sabbath commandment shows itself to be permanent - morally binding and applicable to all mankind in all ages.
So that shows its clear and visible "place".
But it does not show that it is the issue in the mark of the beast or the final end-of-time crisis.
So that brings us to Rev 14:6-7 where we find quoted in the New Testament as part of the 3 angels message - the final message given to mankind - the "unique" language of the Sabbath commandment itself. The first time you find it is in Exodus 20:8-11 - all subsequent quotes of that unique phrasing are clearly identifiable and the last occurance of it is in Rev 14:6-7.
In Christ,
Bob
Christ - in His PRE-cross statement of John 14 says of the PRE-cross commandments "IF you love me KEEP My commandments".
Again - arguing that the pre-cross concept of the commandments of God would have been "just too vague" to His first century - first-order audience and that they would be confused by that term --- is not supportable.
Even the Pope in Dies Domini admits that the Pre-Cross fact of the 10 commandments and even the Sabbath commandment shows itself to be permanent - morally binding and applicable to all mankind in all ages.
So that shows its clear and visible "place".
But it does not show that it is the issue in the mark of the beast or the final end-of-time crisis.
So that brings us to Rev 14:6-7 where we find quoted in the New Testament as part of the 3 angels message - the final message given to mankind - the "unique" language of the Sabbath commandment itself. The first time you find it is in Exodus 20:8-11 - all subsequent quotes of that unique phrasing are clearly identifiable and the last occurance of it is in Rev 14:6-7.
In Christ,
Bob
Romans 14:5-- One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
Colossians 2:16-17-- Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Colossians 2:16-17-- Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"Notice the details"??
The term for "regard" in the first instance makes it's meaning very clear. To regard is to "observe the day". So "One man Regards One day while another Regards Every Day" .. "One man Observes one Day above another while another man Observes Every Day..".
Now obviously there are a list of days to "observe" given in Lev 23 and there is no Hebrew law telling them to "Observe every day of the year" but to "Observe every day of the religious calendar". That means that we have some that are "observing One day" of that Lev 23 list and another that is "observing ALL of them".
What you don't get - is someone "observing NONE of them".
As for the "Shadow" Sabbaths in Lev 23 - that were "predictive" prophecies about the events of Christ (For example "Christ our passover is sacrificed" 1Cor 5) - it is clear that they were fulfilled in the life of Christ.
Colossians 2:16-17-- Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
As we see in Matt 7 "before the Cross" this correction of abuse .. the command to "judge not" was just as true BEFORE the Cross as afterwards.
But the pre-Cross Matt 7 instruction did not give people license to ignore the commandments of God nor do the post cross statements that make the same point.
In Christ,
Bob
Nobody said "keep the/my commandments" was "vague". What's vague is the proofs offered that the Sabbath (according to the letter) is still included in those commandments. Just because some pope said it means nothing. They're the ones who changed it to Sunday, remember? (as well as making many other unbiblical claims). They too fail to comprehend the difference between the letter of the Law and the spirit of the Law, so their way out of it is "changing" it by their own church authority, so of course, they will "admit" that otherwise, it would still be binding. This is what Sabbthkeepers keep playing on, but the actual scriptural support is lacking, other than a statement that was used in the fourth commandment being reused in Revelation. That does not say that the letter of the commandment was still in effect. If it was, the New Testament would come out and say so. The first century audience knew full well that false gods, idolatry, blasphemy, dishonoring parents, murder, adultery, stealing, lying and coveting were apart of the commandments, but they are all clearly repeated, reiterated, emphasized. What you're doing is like if there was no direct condemnation of bowing down to idols (even if one says it represents God) in the NT, and you inferred that it was wrong because the commandment mentions mercy, and you find NT verses that mention mercy. God did not leave such weak inference to guide us, he clearly reiterates the commandments.
When there was still some doubt, ACTS 15 laid down the physical commandments (pertaining to the human body) that were retained, and these were universal. Don't forget, there were many gentiles coming in (who had not been following God and keeping the OT Sabbath and other laws), and Jewish believers were pressuring them to keep certain physical commandments of the Law. If the sabbath (as well as dietary laws) were included in the New Covenant, they definitely would have been mentioned here.
[CONT'd]
[ November 19, 2003, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
From the link:
...even those commandments that were repeated were CHANGED. Read Matthew ch.5 on the murder and adultery commandment. Lawkeepers correctly point ut that Jesus was "magnifying" the Law (10 Commandments), but just look at what He was doing: "Ye have heard by them of old, 'You shall not...'; But I say unto you...". In 'magnifying' the commandment, Jesus actually superseded the Mosaic ordinance. Notice, what "them of old time" said (quote of Ex.20 commandment —God's word through Moses) is contrasted with what Jesus is now saying. It was the spiritual principle of the moral and spiritual (see v.33-37, ch.6:19-21,24) laws that Jesus was bringing out. But everytime He came to the Sabbath, and magnified its spiritual intent, that always meant that the physical act of not working on a day took less importance to other issues. The spiritual intent of the Law was not written in the Law. That's why it had to be abolished. The letter of the commandments did not reveal the full will of God and therefore could not make man righteous anyway. So therefore, the Law must be written in the heart (conscience). The lawkeepers say this, but still hold on to the written ["carnal"] commandments. Paul says that even people who never heard the law will still be judged or justified by their conscience (Rom.2:14-16). John 1:9 shows that every person in the world has this law written in their hearts, even though they may never have heard of Him. This is why it is taught that all sinners, even the ones who never heard, are lost. They were still held accountable for what they knew was right. (James 4:17), and everyone has a sense of right and wrong, even though they may tell themselves that there are "no moral 'absolutes'". Man automatically knows that he should not dishonor his parents, kill, commit adultery, steal, lie and conspire to take something from someone else. And when a person comes to know something about God, he knows that he should commit himself to this God, and just like in a human relationship, when you're committed to a person, you don't forsake him or her for someone else, or have false ideas of who this person is or 'should be', and you wouldn't insult or dishonor this person. Also, people who know God also sense a greater moral and spiritual responsibility than what is just written in the 10 Commandments. This is what Jesus was pointing out in Matthew 6.
But who would automatically sense a responsibility to keep specific days in honor of God (unless they have read the command in the Law of Moses )? That is just not a universal moral or spiritual law like the others are. It is not written in the heart.
The Lawkeepers misunderstand the "commandments of God" mentioned inthe New Testament (John 14:15,1 John 2:3,4, 3:22,5:23) and (Rom.13:9, James 2:11 Matt.19:18, 19, 15:4; James 2:8-12, and numerous other NT scriptures mentioning some of the Ten Commandments. They admit that the Law that was abolished was the Law of Moses. But then they try to separate the Ten Commandments from the Law of Moses as a "separate eternal covenant" in itself. Armstrong goes even further as to say that the Sabbath alone was separate eternal covenant in itself. This is based on the assumption that it was always commanded by God, starting from the Creation,where it is mentioned. But nowhere before Moses was it ever recorded as being commanded for man's observance. Genesis was written by Moses, and he mentioned God's resting on and blessing the Sabbath at Creation to show the reader its meaning. Then God used that as a sign to identify His people at that time. But nowhere does it say that this makes it an "eternal covenant" binding upon all men for all ages. Abraham was mentioned as keeping "commandments, statutes and laws" (Gen 26:5) but God doesn't say what thess laws were. We can't assume that they were the same as the ones He gave to Israel.
You'd think that the Orthodox Jews would believe in the univeraslity of the Law and its obligation to all man, but they believe that it was only for the Children of Israel, and criticize the Christian lawkeepers for not understanding what the Law was about. They point out that there were really only seven universal laws, called the "Noahide laws" (with about 66 principles under them) given to all of man, (see www.noahide.com/7laws.htm), and these are basically what we see retained in Acts 15, (and also would have been the "commandments, statutes and laws" Abraham kept, along with sacrifices) while the rest of the Law was only for Israel.
Mark 7:10, Romans 7:7 and 13:9 show that the Ten Commandments are apart of the Law of Moses.
The dietary Laws are apart of the "Book of the Law" (i.e— the rest of the Law outside the 10 commandments, which most groups will admit was "done away"), but they still keep them. It's like they are just just picking out whichever commandments they want (especially those which are not directly said by NT writers to be done away), and separating them from the rest of the laws—especially those which are clearly done away, such as sacrifices and circumcisision, when no such separation existed in the Law.
...even those commandments that were repeated were CHANGED. Read Matthew ch.5 on the murder and adultery commandment. Lawkeepers correctly point ut that Jesus was "magnifying" the Law (10 Commandments), but just look at what He was doing: "Ye have heard by them of old, 'You shall not...'; But I say unto you...". In 'magnifying' the commandment, Jesus actually superseded the Mosaic ordinance. Notice, what "them of old time" said (quote of Ex.20 commandment —God's word through Moses) is contrasted with what Jesus is now saying. It was the spiritual principle of the moral and spiritual (see v.33-37, ch.6:19-21,24) laws that Jesus was bringing out. But everytime He came to the Sabbath, and magnified its spiritual intent, that always meant that the physical act of not working on a day took less importance to other issues. The spiritual intent of the Law was not written in the Law. That's why it had to be abolished. The letter of the commandments did not reveal the full will of God and therefore could not make man righteous anyway. So therefore, the Law must be written in the heart (conscience). The lawkeepers say this, but still hold on to the written ["carnal"] commandments. Paul says that even people who never heard the law will still be judged or justified by their conscience (Rom.2:14-16). John 1:9 shows that every person in the world has this law written in their hearts, even though they may never have heard of Him. This is why it is taught that all sinners, even the ones who never heard, are lost. They were still held accountable for what they knew was right. (James 4:17), and everyone has a sense of right and wrong, even though they may tell themselves that there are "no moral 'absolutes'". Man automatically knows that he should not dishonor his parents, kill, commit adultery, steal, lie and conspire to take something from someone else. And when a person comes to know something about God, he knows that he should commit himself to this God, and just like in a human relationship, when you're committed to a person, you don't forsake him or her for someone else, or have false ideas of who this person is or 'should be', and you wouldn't insult or dishonor this person. Also, people who know God also sense a greater moral and spiritual responsibility than what is just written in the 10 Commandments. This is what Jesus was pointing out in Matthew 6.
But who would automatically sense a responsibility to keep specific days in honor of God (unless they have read the command in the Law of Moses )? That is just not a universal moral or spiritual law like the others are. It is not written in the heart.
Continuing:
The Lawkeepers misunderstand the "commandments of God" mentioned inthe New Testament (John 14:15,1 John 2:3,4, 3:22,5:23) and (Rom.13:9, James 2:11 Matt.19:18, 19, 15:4; James 2:8-12, and numerous other NT scriptures mentioning some of the Ten Commandments. They admit that the Law that was abolished was the Law of Moses. But then they try to separate the Ten Commandments from the Law of Moses as a "separate eternal covenant" in itself. Armstrong goes even further as to say that the Sabbath alone was separate eternal covenant in itself. This is based on the assumption that it was always commanded by God, starting from the Creation,where it is mentioned. But nowhere before Moses was it ever recorded as being commanded for man's observance. Genesis was written by Moses, and he mentioned God's resting on and blessing the Sabbath at Creation to show the reader its meaning. Then God used that as a sign to identify His people at that time. But nowhere does it say that this makes it an "eternal covenant" binding upon all men for all ages. Abraham was mentioned as keeping "commandments, statutes and laws" (Gen 26:5) but God doesn't say what thess laws were. We can't assume that they were the same as the ones He gave to Israel.
You'd think that the Orthodox Jews would believe in the univeraslity of the Law and its obligation to all man, but they believe that it was only for the Children of Israel, and criticize the Christian lawkeepers for not understanding what the Law was about. They point out that there were really only seven universal laws, called the "Noahide laws" (with about 66 principles under them) given to all of man, (see www.noahide.com/7laws.htm), and these are basically what we see retained in Acts 15, (and also would have been the "commandments, statutes and laws" Abraham kept, along with sacrifices) while the rest of the Law was only for Israel.
Mark 7:10, Romans 7:7 and 13:9 show that the Ten Commandments are apart of the Law of Moses.
The dietary Laws are apart of the "Book of the Law" (i.e— the rest of the Law outside the 10 commandments, which most groups will admit was "done away"), but they still keep them. It's like they are just just picking out whichever commandments they want (especially those which are not directly said by NT writers to be done away), and separating them from the rest of the laws—especially those which are clearly done away, such as sacrifices and circumcisision, when no such separation existed in the Law.
Sorry, "regard" (or "esteemeth" in the KJV) means in the Greek, "distinguish" or "decide", or "determine". There is nothing about "observe the day", and no comparison between weekly and annual sabbaths here. We must look up the original meanings of the words, not assign them like this. Your quote left out "regard/distinguish one day ABOVE another...". The contrast is to deciding that "one" day is "above" others, or that all are the same. To repeat, nothing about weekly and annual sabbaths, because if it was, then this would give people the option of keeping the annual but not the weekly sabbath --the diametric opposite of the Adventist practice.
In Matt.7, the context is general, regarding someone coming down hard on someone about anything. That is a universal principle. Now in Colossians, it is used for a specific instance: days of worship. The days of worship were in effect in Matt.7, but were not being discussed there. Now, they are not in effect, and Paul is specificaly adressing this in Colossians. Once again, not correlation.
I used to believe this stuff, until I saw how weak these fallacious arguments were compared to the plain teaching, if we let the scripture speak for themselves.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Ok lets start with John 14 -- you are claiming that the pre-cross Jewish adudience would not think that the "Commandments of God" (that we see the saints keeping in Rev 12 and that we see Christ reference in John 14) had anything to do with the 10 commandments OR they possibly might be confused that the Sabbath commandment was actually still in the 10 commandments - at that time in John 14 before the cross?
I have not seen you explain how the simple and obvious fact that Jews Still to this day admit the Sabbath commandment is IN the 10 commandments (as does the Pope according to Dies Domini) - would have been "confusing to them" in John 14.
You are inserting a level of confusion into the text that seems impossible to justify by any measure.
That's a nice story - but we never see anyone in the Bible (OT or NT ) tell a story like "IF I don't find all the 10 commandments repeated in the book of Malachi then which ever ones are missing - are gone).
(As nice a story as that would have made had we actually found it in scripture).
But what we "do find" in Luke 23:56 is that they were still convinced of the fact that the unrepeated Sabbath Commandment had not vanished nor their obligation to obey abolished "And they rested on the Sabbath according to THE commandment" - Luke 23:56.
Now what is "really" fascinating is not ONLY do they appear to still be crystal clear on the existence of the Holy Day made by God on the 7th day of Creation week "For Mankind and not mankind made for the Sabbath" - but they are EVEN keeping it AFTER the Cross in Luke 23 AND even worse - Luke himself is telling the story decades later and STILL affirms that their keeping of it is in according to the Commandment that God gave.
--
In Acts 15 there is no repeat of the fact that God made the world, there is no "repeat" of the fact of the Messiah or of the fact that homosexuality is wrong nor a repeat of the fact that you are not to take God's name in vain.
The fact is that the subject of Acts 15 is clearly stated as "circumcision" for Gentiles.
One of the mitigating balancing facts in NOT having them circumcised is the fact that they are being taught the scriptures, the Word of God, the infallible, Holy Inspired text "Every Sabbath" Acts 15:19-21.
And not only are Christian Gentiles getting that weekly dose of the Word of God - but even NON-Christian Gentiles are getting God's Word from Sabbath to Sabbath as we see in Acts 13 and Acts 17. In fact Paul comes back Sabbath after Sabbath to reach out to "believing" Gentiles even though the Jews were rejecting him.
Your argument that the disciples would have been fully confused on this point by John 14 before the Cross is not supportable given the facts of Luke 23 and the way Luke speaks about the Sabbath even decades afterwards when writing that account.
In Christ,
Bob