For SDA's on Sunday worship

[BobRyan]

ERic said --
Because this "return" was manifested by "observing days and months and seasons (appointed times)" of ancient Israel,

#1 There is no place in all of scripture where "Appointed times" is called "Days, months, Seasons".

#2. There is no place in all of scripture where the Lev 23 list is called "Seasons".

#3. There is no place in all of scripture where ANY Biblically defined "observance" is called "turning back again to slavery" or to "weak elemental things of the world".

#4. Gal 04 does not say "by "observing days and months and seasons (appointed times)of ancient Israel" - You "need it to" but it does not.

Galatians 4
1 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything,
2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.
3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.

It seems “obvious” that Paul would not class the faithful obedience of OT saints (as we see in Heb 11) in the same category as godless paganism ( yet many Christians today still “hope” to find such atrocity in this text). Suppose for a moment that Paul is intending to lump “what was approved of in the saints of the OT along with outright paganism of the gentiles in Galatia before their conversion. What are the options then?

#1. If this is a condemnation of the entire OT period and the NT period after the cross – lumping them all in with pagans and saying of ALL of them “we were under bondage to the elemental things of this world” – then the Approval we see in Heb 11 of those OT saints refutes all such speculative “grouping” with paganism and Paul is made to contradict himself. For paganism is “not pleasing to God” but in Heb 11 we find that the OT saints were “pleasing to God” and gained approval by faith – continuing as examples of faith EVEN to the NT saints. The other problem this poses is that instead of the Law being “spiritual” as Paul said in Romans 7 and instead of it being “holy just and good” it is really just ” the elemental things of this world”

#2. If we ignore the entire OT period and pretend that this “while we were children” statement of Paul “really” only covers a few decades after the cross – then Paul is only lumping post-cross obedience to the Scriptures – the Law of God as given in the OT – along with paganism classing them both as ‘bondage under the weak and elemental things of the World”. But that means that the Acts 21 example of taking a Hebrew “vow” to prove support and endorsement of the OT code was “Paul sinning and in bondage to the elemental things of this world”. It means that the “observing the day” subject of Romans 14 is really all about “paganism” if they are really observing the same OT days in the NT as in the OT. It means Paul was wrong to claim that they were “observing it to the Lord” for in fact they were “observing the elemental things of the World”. Obviously this option is also “refuted”.

Vs 4 “But when the fullness of time came God sent His Son” makes the “time centered options” #1 and #2 bound to just “pre cross” time.

So what is the meaning?
“WE” while “we” were children we were held in bondage (slavery) to the “elemental things of The World” not (of God). This is both Paul and the Gentiles – (Paul as Saul – the lost). The “things of the World” are NOT the “Law that is Spiritual” Romans 7:14. Paul is grouping lost Jews and lost gentiles both under the condemnation of the law of God – both outside the family of God and “needing to be adopted” and both needing a savior “until faith comes” as we see in Gal3 and each then become members of the faithful line of Abraham (as chapter 3 points out).. He is saying “nothing” about the “Spiritual, holy just and true Law of God” being “the elemental things of this world” as may today hope.

4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Clearly “in the fullness of time” points to the fact of Daniel 9 and Mark 1:15 showing the time of the Messiah’s ministry “The time is fulfilled” Mark 1:15.

Paul makes the argument that instead of Christ coming and “dumping God’s Law so that people would follow a different law” – Christ comes “under the LAW” of God and perfectly complies with it. In fact in Matt 5 Christ condemns anyone who “teaches others” to ignore the Law of God. Certainly something we might expect God to be saying in Gospel as Christ perfectly serving “under the Law” to redeem those who are under the condemnation of the Law discussed in chapter 3.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Eric said

when they were not mandatory, and they were not observing them for the REASONS either Rom 14. OR 1 Cor. 8 stipulate.

#1. Romans 14 and 1Cor 8 do not say "these people just FEEL like it but it can not be found in scripture"

In fact in the case of 1Cor 8 we know it is explicitly COMMANDED post-cross in Acts 15.

No escape Eric.

#2. Neither of those chapters say "this USED to be commanded but has since been abolished".

#3. They are observing JUST as the Scripture defined the observance - it is not "man made tradition" which is in fact the ONLY alternative to scripture.

Eric said --
It was purely at the behest of apostate judaizers; NOT conscientious "brethren"

So you go to hell for following God Word IF the wrong person tells you to obey?

How can you possibly believe that stuff?

However the fact remains - regarding the pagan observance of "days, months AND SEASONS" this is not something they were "told to do".

In fact there is not observance of any time at ALL in the entire book of Galatians where Paul said "someone told you to do this - and it was the wrong someone" - or "someone told you to observe this day, this month, this season".

You simply make it up.

And these enumerated points are why I see my position as strong and yours as hopelessly compromised and conflicted. You can hardly get it to stand up for 2 or 3 text reviews of related texts to see if it is rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Carson Weber]

Robert,

I'm curious. Would you please provide a name of a published commentary that presents the interpretation you're advocating here with regard to Galatians?

 

[BobRyan]

Do you want me to find someone to "tell you what to think" Carson?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Carson Weber]

Robert,

No. I would appreciate a name and title of someone who advocates the same view as you do.

Would you please?

 

[BobRyan]

Dr. Samuel Bacchiocchi - graduated Summa Cum Laude from the Pontifical Gregorian University (maybe you heard of it) - and of course about a dozen million others.

Still. Were you looking for someone to tell you what to think?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

Of course, that's just an SDA leader, and his graduating from a Vatican school and getting the Pope's stamp on his books is a big thing with them. (Thought Rome was so bad and untrustowrthy, as they are the ones who changed the days in the first place. But I guess the point is "they know the truth" [i.e. about their error on God's Law] )

#1 There is no place in all of scripture where "Appointed times" is called "Days, months, Seasons".

#2. There is no place in all of scripture where the Lev 23 list is called "Seasons".

#3. There is no place in all of scripture where ANY Biblically defined "observance" is called "turning back again to slavery" or to "weak elemental things of the world".

#4. Gal 04 does not say "by "observing days and months and seasons (appointed times)of ancient Israel" - You "need it to" but it does not.

"appointed times" is but a translation of what you are translating "seasons". Carson showed you the list of scriptures where it is used for Israel.

Your first post continued to ignore the distinction between "observances" and "weak and beggarly things. But in the second post you finally answer it:

#1. Romans 14 and 1Cor 8 do not say "these people just FEEL like it but it can not be found in scripture"

In fact in the case of 1Cor 8 we know it is explicitly COMMANDED post-cross in Acts 15.

You still put in your own words "FEEL like it" (I say "personal devotion unto the Lord").

Now I notice you have been referring to "meats offered to idols" in Acts 15, to prove your 1 Cor.8 point. But in 1 Cor.8, Paul has just said that an idol is really "nothing" (v.4-6). BUT, since it does carry such a negative connotation, we should avoid it for the sake of the weaker bretheren, and for our own consciences, if it is engrained in our minds as offered to an idol. (v.7ff) Then, it would actually be a "defilement" (pollution--Acts 15 v.20) of the idol. But this defilment is in the conscience, not in the meat itself, because what Paul is saying here, is the idol does not actually do anything to the meat. The defilement is all spiritual and lies in the heart of man (Matt.15:11-20) --either the ones who do the offering to idols, or the ones who believe this has defiled it, (or offends his brethren, and still eats it anyway).

So you go to hell for following God Word IF the wrong person tells you to obey?

In fact there is not observance of any time at ALL in the entire book of Galatians where Paul said "someone told you to do this - and it was the wrong someone" - or "someone told you to observe this day, this month, this season".

How can you possibly believe that stuff?

Because the wrong person would be telling you to do something for the wrong reason. A true brethren would tell you for an acceptable reason. Don't tell me you think it is OK to be listening to apostates to learn "the truth" from them. No, as Paul said in Colossians, "Let no one judge you...except the Body of Christ".

However the fact remains - regarding the pagan observance of "days, months AND SEASONS" this is not something they were "told to do".

No, but they were told by judaizers to observe the Jewish days, months (new moons) and [appointed] times (other festivals). That is the only thing they are being troubled with in the book. "Those who desire to be teachers of the Law" would not lead them to return to pagan practices.

[ January 13, 2004, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

[Eric B]

Continuing on meats offered to idols, I felt I should add, Paul "commands" the new converts in Acts 15 to avoid it because everyone in that context (Jerusalem) would obviously be offended, plus the gentiles themselves would have defiled consciences since they came from an environment where they sacrificed to idols. But in 1 Cor, he clarifies it.

 

[A_Christian]

The New Testament changed the requirements of the LAW. The Christian doesn't have to esteem any day
above another.

As for the Catholics being the ones that changed everything----well I disagree. There were no Catholics in 1st century Europe or anywhere else.
The title came later as did the pre-eminence of the Bishop of Rome. Yet, I seem to remember not
just 1 pope in FRANCE.

Had to get that dig (I mean point)

across...

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Eric B:
[QB] Of course, that's just an SDA leader, and his graduating from a Vatican school and getting the Pope's stamp on his books is a big thing with them. (Thought Rome was so bad and untrustowrthy, as they are the ones who changed the days in the first place. But I guess the point is "they know the truth" [i.e. about their error on God's Law]

You miss the point. When debating with Catholics I almost always give "Catholic sources". What better response for Carson - who "wants to claim" that no scholar would endorse the solid Bible-based position I gave for Gal 04 - than to give Him someone that studied "someplace beyond Stubing" as Catholics would view it?

Surely you followed that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said

#1 There is no place in all of scripture where "Appointed times" is called "Days, months, Seasons".

#2. There is no place in all of scripture where the Lev 23 list is called "Seasons". (OR where the formula" days, months, seasons, years is used to represent the Holy Days of God's Word in Lev 23)

#3. There is no place in all of scripture where ANY Biblically defined "observance" is called "turning back again to slavery" or to "weak elemental things of the world".

#4. Gal 04 does not say "by "observing days and months and seasons (appointed times)of ancient Israel" - You "need it to" but it does not.

Eric said --
"appointed times" is but a translation of what you are translating "seasons". Carson showed you the list of scriptures where it is used for Israel.

Carson was unnable to "find even ONE" place in all of scripture where the formula "Days, months, seasons and years" is used to mean "Gods appointed times in Israel".

He was arguing from the "void" of what he did not have in the text.

Bob said --

#1. Romans 14 and 1Cor 8 do not say "these people just FEEL like it but it can not be found in scripture"

In fact in the case of 1Cor 8 we know it is explicitly COMMANDED post-cross in Acts 15.

Eric said --

You still put in your own words "FEEL like it" (I say "personal devotion unto the Lord").

IF "personal devotion unto the Lord" means "God said nothing about our having to do it" -- provide the text for such an "assignment" of one phrase to the other.

So far - you have not.

Eric said

Now I notice you have been referring to "meats offered to idols" in Acts 15, to prove your 1 Cor.8 point. But in 1 Cor.8, Paul has just said that an idol is really "nothing" (v.4-6). BUT, since it does carry such a negative connotation, we should avoid it... The defilement is all spiritual and lies in the heart of man (Matt.15:11-20) --either the ones who do the offering to idols, or the ones who believe this has defiled it, (or offends his brethren, and still eats it anyway).

This could be applied to Sabbath or Passover or ANYTHING you "Claim" to find in Gal 4. Clearly "it does not" no matter how "offended the judaizers get" - Paul does not take the position in Gal 4 that he takes in 1Cor 8 and the "reason" is because in Gal 4 it is the "OBSERVANCE" that is wrong - NO mention is made of "You are OBSERVING for the WRONG reason" or "Someone has MADE you OBSERVE" - so your view simply argues "out of the void" of what the text "does not say" to claim it "anyway".

How unnexpected.

Bob capitalizes on that point --
So you go to hell for following God Word IF the wrong person tells you to obey?

In fact there is not observance of any time at ALL in the entire book of Galatians where Paul said "someone told you to do this - and it was the wrong someone" - or "someone told you to observe this day, month, season".

How can you possibly believe that stuff?

Eric said --
Because the wrong person would be telling you to do something for the wrong reason.

Idolatry is condemned in Acts 15 NOT because "it was being done at the request of the wrong person" but because "idolatry is wrong".

As Paul said - it is serving at the altars of demons.

It is wrong - EVEN if you happen to like the person that told you to do it. As "nice" as they may be - it is "still wrong".

How can this be that hard?

However the fact remains - regarding the pagan observance of "days, months AND SEASONS" this is not something they were "told to do".

Eric said --

No, but they were told by judaizers to observe the Jewish days, months (new moons) and [appointed] times (other festivals).

#1. No such statement is made equating "festivals" or "feasts" of Lev 23 or the "Sabbaths" of Lev 23 to the pagan practices of Gal 4.

This has been pointed out repeatedly - you have no way of "adding it to the text". You might as well stop digging yourself into that hole deeper.

#2. No statement is made in Gal 4 by any judaizer saying "observe days, months, seasons and years" - and your answer above "admits" that we do not find that in the text - you simply make it up.

#3. No statement is made in Gal 4 saying of the pagan practice of "observing, days AND months AND seasons AND years"-- "Someone TOLD you to do this and you should only have done it because you WANT to not because they told you to" - So you make it up.

#4. No statement is found in Gal 4 saying " "Those who desire to be teachers of the Law are urging you to return to pagan practices" -so "you simply make it up".

You quote - from the void of what the text does not say and in so doing end up with a conflicted view denied in Acts 15, Denied in Romans 7, Denied in Heb 11, Denied in Romans 14, Denied in Rom 3:31, Denied in Rom 2:13, Denied in Romans 8:4-8

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Harley4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
denied in Acts 15, Denied in Romans 7, Denied in Heb 11, Denied in Romans 14, Denied in Rom 3:31, Denied in Rom 2:13, Denied in Romans 8:4-8

Somebody's living in denial

 

[Eric B]

Carson was unnable to "find even ONE" place in all of scripture where the formula "Days, months, seasons and years" is used to mean "Gods appointed times in Israel".

He was arguing from the "void" of what he did not have in the text.

What is this; it has to be in the exact word-for-word "formula"? Point is, Israel observed days, they had new moons, they had appinted times, and they had annual festivals and jubilee years.

IF "personal devotion unto the Lord" means "God said nothing about our having to do it" -- provide the text for such an "assignment" of one phrase to the other.

So far - you have not.

Romans 14, "observe it unto the Lord". I was just paraphrasing.

Paul does not take the position in Gal 4 that he takes in 1Cor 8 and the "reason" is because in Gal 4 it is the "OBSERVANCE" that is wrong - NO mention is made of "You are OBSERVING for the WRONG reason" or "Someone has MADE you OBSERVE" - so your view simply argues "out of the void" of what the text "does not say" to claim it "anyway".

If someone has made them observe for the wrong reason, then the "observance" is wrong. The whole context (which you ignore) is about judaizers coming and influencing them, and v.10 is apart of this.

Idolatry is condemned in Acts 15 NOT because "it was being done at the request of the wrong person" but because "idolatry is wrong".

As Paul said - it is serving at the altars of demons.

It is wrong - EVEN if you happen to like the person that told you to do it. As "nice" as they may be - it is "still wrong".

the "wrong person" argument was about Gal.4, not Acts 15. The issue regarding "right or wrong person" was about the restriction, not the questionable practice. So it would apply to refraining from the meat, not eating it. But since meat offered to idols had such a negative connotation, Paul says not to do it there, (and Paul would certainly not be the "wrong person".)

#1. No such statement is made equating "festivals" or "feasts" of Lev 23 or the "Sabbaths" of Lev 23 to the pagan practices of Gal 4.

This has been pointed out repeatedly - you have no way of "adding it to the text". You might as well stop digging yourself into that hole deeper.

#2. No statement is made in Gal 4 by any judaizer saying "observe days, months, seasons and years" - and your answer above "admits" that we do not find that in the text - you simply make it up.

#3. No statement is made in Gal 4 saying of the pagan practice of "observing, days AND months AND seasons AND years"-- "Someone TOLD you to do this and you should only have done it because you WANT to not because they told you to" - So you make it up.

#4. No statement is found in Gal 4 saying " "Those who desire to be teachers of the Law are urging you to return to pagan practices" -so "you simply make it up".

You base your whole argument on an assumption that Gal.4 is pagan practices. But once again, the only thing being dealt with in that passage is people trying to teach them the Law. So now, you want a direct "the judaizers teach them to observe days and times and months and years", but the context says they were being itroubled by those "desiring to be teachers of the Law", Paul talks extensively about the Law vs. faith, and then we see the Galatians keeping "days and times and months and years". The only thing it could be were observances from the Law of Moses. Of course it's not going to say "those desiring to be teachers of the Law" were urging them to keep pagan days. That was my point; it not what I was implying. Those desiring to teach the Law would teach them the practices of the Law.

 

[BobRyan]

The Gal 4:10 phrase is not used in all of scripture to reference the Lev 23 annual feast days or the Holy day of the Lord.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carson was unnable to "find even ONE" place in all of scripture where the formula "Days, months, seasons and years" is used to mean "Gods appointed times in Israel".

He was arguing from the "void" of what he did not have in the text.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eric asked --
What is this; it has to be in the exact word-for-word "formula"? Point is, Israel observed days, they had new moons, they had appinted times, and they had annual festivals and jubilee years.

There is no question that Israel observed feastivals, Sabbaths and New Moons. Paul mentions this in Col 2:16 showing his clear reference to the Lev 23 practices.

However the phrase "days, months, seasons and years" is never used for the Lev 23 ordinances of God.

It is strictly used in the context of pagan practices being incorporated by some in the church in Galatia.

In Gal 4 the mere "observance" of the pagan times is condemned - regardless of how sincere you want to be when observing them.

Paul is clearly addressing the pagan practices regarding the times observed by the cult of the Emperor in Galatia. Times identified as "days, months, seasons and years" by Bible commentators.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said --
IF "personal devotion unto the Lord" means "God said nothing about our having to do it" -- provide the text for such an "assignment" of one phrase to the other.

So far - you have not.

Eric said --
Romans 14, "observe it unto the Lord". I was just paraphrasing.

Bob said --
Paul does not take the position in Gal 4 that he takes in 1Cor 8 and the "reason" is because in Gal 4 it is the "OBSERVANCE" that is wrong - NO mention is made of "You are OBSERVING for the WRONG reason" or "Someone has MADE you OBSERVE" - so your view simply argues "out of the void" of what the text "does not say" to claim it "anyway".

ERic said --
If someone has made them observe for the wrong reason, then the "observance" is wrong. The whole context (which you ignore) is about judaizers coming and influencing them, and v.10 is apart of this.

AS already pointed out - Paul was not "sincerely objecting to meat offerred to idols" when he offers not to eat meat at all in 1Cor 8 to make others happy.

Your argument above - insists that the condemnation of Gal 4 (which by the way says the person is lost) applies in such cases. Paul was NOT "sincerely opposed to eating meat offered to idols".

Your "if you are not sincere enough when practicing an optional or traditional restriction then you go to hell" argument falls flat.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote: Bob said
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1. No such statement is made equating "festivals" or "feasts" of Lev 23 or the "Sabbaths" of Lev 23 to the pagan practices of Gal 4.

This has been pointed out repeatedly - you have no way of "adding it to the text". You might as well stop digging yourself into that hole deeper.

#2. No statement is made in Gal 4 by any judaizer saying "observe days, months, seasons and years" - and your answer above "admits" that we do not find that in the text - you simply make it up.

#3. No statement is made in Gal 4 saying of the pagan practice of "observing, days AND months AND seasons AND years"-- "Someone TOLD you to do this and you should only have done it because you WANT to not because they told you to" - So you make it up.

#4. No statement is found in Gal 4 saying " "Those who desire to be teachers of the Law are urging you to return to pagan practices" -so "you simply make it up".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eric said --
You base your whole argument on an assumption that Gal.4 is pagan practices.

Not true.

#1. No such statement is made equating "festivals" or "feasts" of Lev 23 or the "Sabbaths" of Lev 23 to the pagan practices of Gal 4.

This has been pointed out repeatedly - you have no way of "adding it to the text". You might as well stop digging yourself into that hole deeper.

Even if you come to Gal 4 and have made no decision at all regarding 4:10 it is already true that the formula used in 4:10 is not used in all of scripture as a clear reference to "feastivals, new moons and Sabbaths" of Lev 23. All commentators agree.

You may want to "assume" it is the case here - as opposed to all of scripture - but that is an assumption "in spite of the facts" of exegesis.


#2. No statement is made in Gal 4 by any judaizer saying "observe days, months, seasons and years" - and your answer above "admits" that we do not find that in the text - you simply make it up.

You answered that "no" you do not find any Judaizer making that case for "day, months, seasons, years" in the entire book of Galatians.

again - this is a fact no matter how you choose to interpret the formula in 4:10-


#3. No statement is made in Gal 4 saying of the pagan practice of "observing, days AND months AND seasons AND years"-- "Someone TOLD you to do this and you should only have done it because you WANT to not because they told you to" - So you make it up.

This too is simply a fact about what you do not find regardint that particular practice - in the entier book of Galatians.

You take your own views - in spite of that fact

#4. No statement is found in Gal 4 saying " "Those who desire to be teachers of the Law are urging you to return to pagan practices" -so "you simply make it up".

See the point of #3 above

Perhaps you speculate that there was a Judaizer in Galatia that was heterodox enough to include this times observed by those of the cult of the emperor in Galatia Christians as well as the God-ordained practices mentioned in Galatians like circumcision - but still - you rely on your speculation alone to do it.

Eric said
But once again, the only thing being dealt with in that passage is people trying to teach them the Law. So now, you want a direct "the judaizers teach them to observe days and times and months and years", but the context says they were being itroubled by those "desiring to be teachers of the Law",

And certainly that is "one of the problems" being faced by those in Galatia.

Whether those judaizers were heterodox to also be urging pagan times such as "days, months, seasons, years" is simply speculation on your part.

That Paul himself would abandon his Bible-consitent model in Col 2:16 and use a pagan system to denote God's authorized ordinances in Gal 4:10 is also a speculative position your are taking.

Eric said --
Paul talks extensively about the Law vs. faith, and then we see the Galatians keeping "days and times and months and years". The only thing it could be were observances from the Law of Moses.

Clearly that is wrong.

The cult of the Emperor being practiced by the pagans and some heterodox Jews in Galatia specifically addresses the formula "Days, months, seasons, and years" and going back as far as MArtin Luther we have agrement on this point.

Martin Luther "Almost all doctors have interpreted this reference as concerning the astrological days of the Chaldeans"

A commentary on St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians, rev, trans, [London: James Clarke, 1953], 392

Eric said --
Of course it's not going to say "those desiring to be teachers of the Law" were urging them to keep pagan days. That was my point; it not what I was implying. Those desiring to teach the Law would teach them the practices of the Law.

Indeed - you have consistently argued that observance of God's ordinances is the paganism Paul speaks of in Gal 4:10. No debating that point - we agree that is your view.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

There is no question that Israel observed feastivals, Sabbaths and New Moons. Paul mentions this in Col 2:16 showing his clear reference to the Lev 23 practices.

However the phrase "days, months, seasons and years" is never used for the Lev 23 ordinances of God.

It is strictly used in the context of pagan practices being incorporated by some in the church in Galatia.

In Gal 4 the mere "observance" of the pagan times is condemned - regardless of how sincere you want to be when observing them.

Paul is clearly addressing the pagan practices regarding the times observed by the cult of the Emperor in Galatia. Times identified as "days, months, seasons and years" by Bible commentators.

#1. No such statement is made equating "festivals" or "feasts" of Lev 23 or the "Sabbaths" of Lev 23 to the pagan practices of Gal 4.

This has been pointed out repeatedly - you have no way of "adding it to the text". You might as well stop digging yourself into that hole deeper.

Even if you come to Gal 4 and have made no decision at all regarding 4:10 it is already true that the formula used in 4:10 is not used in all of scripture as a clear reference to "festivals, new moons and Sabbaths" of Lev 23. All commentators agree.

That Paul himself would abandon his Bible-consitent model in Col 2:16 and use a pagan system to denote God's authorized ordinances in Gal 4:10 is also a speculative position your are taking.

The cult of the Emperor being practiced by the pagans and some heterodox Jews in Galatia specifically addresses the formula "Days, months, seasons, and years" and going back as far as MArtin Luther we have agrement on this point.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Luther "Almost all doctors have interpreted this reference as concerning the astrological days of the Chaldeans"

A commentary on St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians, rev, trans, [London: James Clarke, 1953], 392
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indeed - you have consistently argued that observance of God's ordinances is the paganism Paul speaks of in Gal 4:10. No debating that point - we agree that is your view.

Oh, so I see you have gone and done some reading on the subject. Now you have found a name to paste on your hypothetical "pagan galatianizers"---the "cult of the Emperor and Chaldean astrologers". Only problem is, this is not mentioned at all in Galatians as being what the Christians Paul was talking to were being influenced by. Several times you accuse me of "making things up", but you insert this here out of nowhere, simply because you can't believe that Paul could possibly be criticizing them for keeping OT days as if Christ had never come. The commentators can be wrong to. They often operate from their systems of tradition, or hearsay (i.e. "the doctors have always said..."). If these same doctors, and commentators following them, try to prove infant baptism, transubstantiation, or reverence of Mary, will you believe those too? (And notice, "ALMOST all doctors...". It was not even universally agreed!) But just from looking at the context, we see who was troubling the Galatians, and these Judaizers would NEVER urge anyone to engage in an Emperor cult or Chaldean astrology! These people were not heterodox, they were orthodox.
The words do not have to be exact. For one thing, the OT was Hebrew, and Paul wrote in Greek, so terms will not always line exactly up. But it is clear that BOTH pagans and Hebrews had "days and months and appointed times and years", and that what Paul is criticizing in Galatia is the misuse of Jewish practices.

Your argument above - insists that the condemnation of Gal 4 (which by the way says the person is lost) applies in such cases. Paul was NOT "sincerely opposed to eating meat offered to idols".

Your "if you are not sincere enough when practicing an optional or traditional restriction then you go to hell" argument falls flat.

But I don't argue they "go to Hell"; you do, to try to strengthen your case that these couldn't possibly be OT practices God once commanded.
Paul is telling them they are living like they are once again in their previous "lost" state. That does not mean that they were actually "lost" again. That is a warning to encourage us that now that we have Christ, to act like He has regenerated us, as we see in his discussion in Colossians ch. 3.

#2. No statement is made in Gal 4 by any judaizer saying "observe days, months, seasons and years" - and your answer above "admits" that we do not find that in the text - you simply make it up.

You answered that "no" you do not find any Judaizer making that case for "day, months, seasons, years" in the entire book of Galatians.

again - this is a fact no matter how you choose to interpret the formula in 4:10-

I made it up? Then who caused them to keep these days then? The pagan Emperor cult? Or Chaldean astrologers? Where are they mentioned? No, it is you who made that up. Yet, we do see "the Law" and those who desire to be teachers of the Law mentioned throughout.

#4. No statement is found in Gal 4 saying " "Those who desire to be teachers of the Law are urging you to return to pagan practices" -so "you simply make it up".

I said those who desire to be teachers of the Law were urging them to return to OT Law pracices, based on the context. You insist these were pagan practices, and have not offered enough proof otherwise. So it is not me saying that those who desire to be teachers of the law are urging them to keep pagan practices. You are just piling straw man on top of straw man, but it doesn't work.

Perhaps you speculate that there was a Judaizer in Galatia that was heterodox enough to include this times observed by those of the cult of the emperor in Galatia Christians as well as the God-ordained practices mentioned in Galatians like circumcision - but still - you rely on your speculation alone to do it.

And certainly that is "one of the problems" being faced by those in Galatia.

Whether those judaizers were heterodox to also be urging pagan times such as "days, months, seasons, years" is simply speculation on your part.

YOU'RE the one who suggested this-- that the Jews influencing them mixed in pagan days with the Law (and these were the "two problems" of the book of Galatians, because there "HAS to" be more than one). I'm the one who says that no judaizers would ever do this, but you erect straw men that I continuously deny, and then proceed to put them in my mouth. Once again, unbelievable; your tactics!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Eric B:
Now you have found a name to paste on your hypothetical "pagan galatianizers"---the "cult of the Emperor and Chaldean astrologers". Only problem is, this is not mentioned at all in Galatians as being what the Christians Paul was talking to were being influenced by.

Just "in case" your expressed interest above in what is actually in the text of the NT on this subject - including Gal 4... Here is what you "don't find at all" in the text. "again"

Bob said --
There is no question that Israel observed feastivals, Sabbaths and New Moons. Paul mentions this in Col 2:16 showing his clear reference to the Lev 23 practices.

The phrase "days, months, seasons and years" is never used for the Lev 23 ordinances of God.

It is strictly used in the context of pagan practices being incorporated by some in the church in Galatia.

In Gal 4 the mere "observance" of the pagan times is condemned - regardless of how sincere you want to be when observing them.

Paul is clearly addressing the pagan practices regarding the times observed by the cult of the Emperor in Galatia. Times identified as "days, months, seasons and years" by Bible commentators.

#1. No such statement is made equating "festivals" or "feasts" of Lev 23 or the "Sabbaths" of Lev 23 to the pagan practices of Gal 4.

This has been pointed out repeatedly - you have no way of "adding it to the text". You might as well stop digging yourself into that hole deeper.

Even if you come to Gal 4 and have made no decision at all regarding 4:10 it is already true that the formula used in 4:10 is not used in all of scripture as a clear reference to "festivals, new moons and Sabbaths" of Lev 23. All commentators agree.

That Paul himself would abandon his Bible-consitent model in Col 2:16 and use a pagan system to denote God's authorized ordinances in Gal 4:10 is also a speculative position your are taking.

The cult of the Emperor being practiced by the pagans and some heterodox Jews in Galatia specifically addresses the formula "Days, months, seasons, and years" and going back as far as MArtin Luther we have agrement on this point.

quote: [/QB]

Indeed - you have consistently argued that observance of God's ordinances is the paganism Paul speaks of in Gal 4:10. No debating that point - we agree that is your view.
[/quote]

So when you talk about what is actually "in" the text and what is "missing" - the list above is accurate. You would need to respond to each point.

Your "tactic" of interest "at times" in certain snippets but not paying attention to the list given above - is "amazing".

Eric said --

Several times you accuse me of "making things up", but you insert this here out of nowhere, simply because you can't believe that Paul could possibly be criticizing them for keeping OT days as if Christ had never come.

#1. Christ did not come to declare that His Word is "a form of paganism" or that continuing to honor or obey God's Word is "a return to Paganism". No way to slice it Eric - the position you have taken here is not supportable at all from scripture.

#2. You as much as admit in the quote you give above that to "keep" the times of the Word of God - is "a return of paganism" because it is a denial that Christ has come. And in Isiah 66 we see that time "continued" and observed EVEN in the New Earth. Yet your statement above attempts to fly in the face of scripture given in Romans 14 and the fact that the formula of Gal 4 is only used for pagan times, pagan days.

Eric said --
The commentators can be wrong to. They often operate from their systems of tradition, or hearsay (i.e. "the doctors have always said..."). If these same doctors, and commentators following them, try to prove infant baptism,...

I do not deny the commentators can be biased by their own doctrinal structures.

My posts have been from the Word of God alone - apart from a slight mention to one of the references I have from a number of Protestant sources on this subject.

Eric --
But just from looking at the context, we see who was troubling the Galatians, and these Judaizers would NEVER urge anyone to engage in an Emperor cult or Chaldean astrology!

In fact we know from Acts that heterodoxy among the Jews existed in the NT.

But the source of pagan influence at Galatia is not limited to heterodox Jews. As it turns out - paganism was their context, their lifestyle. Just as in central and south America - the occult is mixed in with RC worship practices. A perfect illustration of two worship systems and cultures merging when corrective instruction is lacking.

Eric said --
These people were not heterodox, they were orthodox.

An interesting and speculative view. I am guessing you are arguing from the void of what you suppose in this case.

Eric said --The words do not have to be exact. For one thing, the OT was Hebrew, and Paul wrote in Greek, so terms will not always line exactly up

Already refuted in our discussion so far as we observe that Paul DID use the formula in God's Word in Col 2:16. Supposing that he had not way to show his readers when he wanted to refer to God approved, God-ordained, God-authored ordinances when writing in greek - is speculative defensive tactic you take in spite of the Col 2:16 argument refuting it. Clearly - your argument is weak so you speculate at this point.

Eric said --

. But it is clear that BOTH pagans and Hebrews had "days and months and appointed times and years", and that what Paul is criticizing in Galatia is the misuse of Jewish practices.

Wrong. Althought they BOTH have times that they observe - the formula Paul uses to clearly identify the JEWISH form - is given for us BY PAUL in Col 2:16. The defense of that Jewish form is given in Romans 14. Obviously - Since God authored it - it is done "unto the Lord". But in the case of paganism "God did not author it" the practice is "condemned" without reference to "the wrong person insisted that you practice it".


quote:Bob said --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your argument above - insists that the condemnation of Gal 4 (which by the way says the person is lost) applies in such cases. Paul was NOT "sincerely opposed to eating meat offered to idols".

Your "if you are not sincere enough when practicing an optional or traditional restriction then you go to hell" argument falls flat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eric --
But I don't argue they "go to Hell";

No you don't. Paul argues that in the mere act of "observing" these pagan times "I have labored over you in vain". You seem to try hard to avoid that obvious point of the text since it shows "too well" the contrast between the pagan observances "condemned" in Gal 4 - and the God-ordained ordinances "approved and defended" in Romans 14.

That much is clear.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Eric said
Paul is telling them they are living like they are once again in their previous "lost" state. That does not mean that they were actually "lost" again.

Paul says that they "return again" to the worship of those things which by nature are not god at all. Paul then says that because they have done this "I fear that I have labored over you in vain". Paul makes it clear that it is a return to Paganism and that these pagan observances are to be totally condemned.


quote: Bob said --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#2. No statement is made in Gal 4 by any judaizer saying "observe days, months, seasons and years" - and your answer above "admits" that we do not find that in the text - you simply make it up.

You answered that "no" you do not find any Judaizer making that case for "day, months, seasons, years" in the entire book of Galatians.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This shows that the origin for this observance of times - where the mere observance constitutes a "return" to things that pertain to that which is not god at all - is not identified in the text. IT "could" be heterodox jews - but could just as easily be the pagan citizens. After all even the heterodox Jews did not start our heterodox - they had to be influenced by paganism to even create the idea of heterodoxy in Judaism. So it continues to be true of the Galatian christians they had two POSSIBLE sources.

Eric asks -- Then who caused them to keep these days then? The pagan Emperor cult? Or Chaldean astrologers? Where are they mentioned?

Again - the source of the pagan observance is not clear - the source of the obviously Jewish (God - ordained) observances in Galatia IS clear.

Bob said
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#4. No statement is found in Gal 4 saying " "Those who desire to be teachers of the Law are urging you to return to pagan practices" -so "you simply make it up".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly it COULD have been heterodox Jews urging this - but the text does not say if they are the only source of the pagan times kept in Gal 4.


Since you continue to pretend that I am the one suggesting that these pagan practices exist and are being urged by the "historic context" of heterodox jews, and also Gentiles in that same area engaged in the "Cult of the Emperor" --

Perhaps a few more - outside quotes for you to consider for historic background considerations in your exegesis.

Lev 19: 26 You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor observe times (KJV).

Bible scholars have long recognized the pagan system being referenced here.

Martin Luther "Almost all doctors have interpreted this reference as concerning the astrological days of the Chaldeans"

A commentary on St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians, rev, trans, [London: James Clarke, 1953], 392

Troy Martin agrees with Luther
“In 4.8 Paul mentions the former pagan life of the Galatian Christians. In 4.9, he asks them how they can desire their former life again. He then proposes their observance of the time-keeping scheme in 4.10 as a demonstrative proof of their reversion to their old life…Considering only the immediate context of Gal 4.10 the list must be understood as a pagan temporal scheme”

“Pagan and Judeo-Christian Time-keeping Schemes in Gal 4:10 and Col 2:16” NTS 42 (1996):105-119 ( p 113) Troy Martin


R. A. Cole “it is not necessary…to see any Jewish influence in these Galatians; in all forms of paganism there is some form of ‘casting horoscopes’, with consequent ‘lucky’ and ‘unlucky’ days”

(The Epistle of Paul to the Galatians: An Introduction and Commentary,, R. A. Cole. TNTC [London: Tyndale, 1969], 119)


S. Mitchell writes “the major obstacle which stood in the way of the progress of Christianity, and the force which would have drawn new adherents back to conformity with the prevailing paganism, was the public worship of he Emperor. The packed calendar of the ruler cult dragooned the citizens…into observing days, months, seasons and years which it laid down for special recognition and celebration”

S. Mitchell, Anatolia; Land, Men and Gods in Asia Minor, Volume 2 The rise of the Church (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1993), P. 10.

Even authors that “insist” on using Gal 4 as a method to attack Christ the Creator’s memorial of His creative act – and given as His holy day in Gen 2:3 (a blessing for all mankind Mark 2:27) – admit that their blind use of 4:10 as a reference to God’s Ordinances in His Word – is merely a preference not a fact dictated by the text.

:”They (the days, months, seasons and years) could equally well of course refer to the quasi-magical observances that we know to have been rife in Ephesus and presumably in other parts of Asia Minor too (Acts 19:19) Heterodox Jews as well as pagans certainly practices these arts as we see from Acts 19:”

The Rev. Cannon R. A. Cole, M.Th, Ph.D. The Letter of Paul to the Galatians (Inter-Varsity Press, 1965, 1989) P. 165)

#1 The Greek term for "observe" in Gal 4 is NOT the term used in Romans 14 that is also translated "observe". Rather in the unique Gal 4 case it means" to "watch with evil intent" and refers to something like the astrology practices seen today.

Lev 19 describes it in other Bile translations as –

26 "`Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood; neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe omens.(KJ21)
26You shall not eat anything with the blood; neither shall you use magic, omens, or witchcraft [or predict events by horoscope or signs and lucky days].(AMP)

So “instead” of the Gal 4 text addressing the popular notion of “obeying God’s Word when you don’t really have to if you don’t feel like it” – the Gal 4 text is condemning “observe” as in the pagan practice “...to inspect alongside" (i.e. to note insidiously). Where "Insidious" can be to "intended to entrap or beguile", or "stealthily treacherous or deceitful.
#2. God's Word did not command His people to "observe seasons or months".

#3. Using another word for “observance” -- The "observances of days" is mentioned in Romans 14 and the "Condemnation" there is against anyone who would "condemn" the "observances". Bending Gal 4 to point at the very practices employed in Romans 14 is a abusive example of eisegesis.

#4. In this case months and seasons are lumped in with days. The indication of a pagan system of practice is clearly - and repeatedly brought to view. Nothing here is ordained by God - established by God - given by God as a practice for God's people. It is utterly condemned as originating from pagan worship alone.

#5. Paul says this is “a return” and that they are “enslaved all over AGAIN” – these gentiles, these converted pagans – were never Jews. They are not returning to “salvation by keeping the Law of God” as something they “used to do”. This is simply “another” problem Paul is identifying among the Galatians that is in “Addition” to their problem with Judaizers


In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

#1. Christ did not come to declare that His Word is "a form of paganism" or that continuing to honor or obey God's Word is "a return to Paganism". No way to slice it Eric - the position you have taken here is not supportable at all from scripture.

#2. You as much as admit in the quote you give above that to "keep" the times of the Word of God - is "a return of paganism" because it is a denial that Christ has come. And in Isiah 66 we see that time "continued" and observed EVEN in the New Earth. Yet your statement above attempts to fly in the face of scripture given in Romans 14 and the fact that the formula of Gal 4 is only used for pagan times, pagan days.

Once again, you are the one insisting that 1) keeping days is still "obedience to God", 2) and that the days of this passage are paganism, not me, so I never said "obeying God is a return to paganism". Deal with what I actually say, not what you want me to say so you could have an easy straw man to knock down.

In fact we know from Acts that heterodoxy among the Jews existed in the NT.

But the source of pagan influence at Galatia is not limited to heterodox Jews. As it turns out - paganism was their context, their lifestyle. Just as in central and south America - the occult is mixed in with RC worship practices. A perfect illustration of two worship systems and cultures merging when corrective instruction is lacking.

IT "could" be heterodox jews - but could just as easily be the pagan citizens. After all even the heterodox Jews did not start our heterodox - they had to be influenced by paganism to even create the idea of heterodoxy in Judaism. So it continues to be true of the Galatian christians they had two POSSIBLE sources.

A type of heterodoxy is mentioned in Colossians regarding worshipping of angels and "neglecting of the flesh" (ascetic practices), but it would be quite a stretch for them to be leading the gentiles into pagan days. And that was Colossae, not Galatia. Now, you suggest again that they simply could have lapsed back into their old days without any outside influence. While this is hypothetically possible, once again, it is not in the context. Clearly, the context is on the Law, which was out tutor, and how we are heirs, which are under tutors until the appointed time, which was when Christ came (v.1-4). He continues with "you who desire to be under the Law" (v.21) and this does not simply mean "you who desire to be under the condemnation by the Law for your old paganism". He is using "the Law" in this case meaning the Torah of Moses (v.22). He nowhere else criticizes them for paganism, but only mentions this as their past, and says that what they are influenced by now is no better.
Then you even go on to admit "Again - the source of the pagan observance is not clear - the source of the obviously Jewish (God - ordained) observances in Galatia IS clear". "Clearly it COULD have been heterodox Jews urging this - but the text does not say if they are the only source of the pagan times kept in Gal 4.". So we see here that YOU are the one speculating. Anything but what the context is talking about.

Since you continue to pretend that I am the one suggesting that these pagan practices exist and are being urged by the "historic context" of heterodox jews, and also Gentiles in that same area engaged in the "Cult of the Emperor" --

Perhaps a few more - outside quotes for you to consider for historic background considerations in your exegesis.

Even authors that “insist” on using Gal 4 as a method to attack Christ the Creator’s memorial of His creative act – and given as His holy day in Gen 2:3 (a blessing for all mankind Mark 2:27) – admit that their blind use of 4:10 as a reference to God’s Ordinances in His Word – is merely a preference not a fact dictated by the text.

I have never heard of these people, and couldn't even find much about them in a search, other than their books for asale, and a board with a similar debate of Martin's treatment of Galatians. (They wouldn't be SDA's would they?). That is just their theory, and it is not universally agreed.

Already refuted in our discussion so far as we observe that Paul DID use the formula in God's Word in Col 2:16. Supposing that he had not way to show his readers when he wanted to refer to God approved, God-ordained, God-authored ordinances when writing in greek - is speculative defensive tactic you take in spite of the Col 2:16 argument refuting it. Clearly - your argument is weak so you speculate at this point.

Wrong. Althought they BOTH have times that they observe - the formula Paul uses to clearly identify the JEWISH form - is given for us BY PAUL in Col 2:16. The defense of that Jewish form is given in Romans 14. Obviously - Since God authored it - it is done "unto the Lord". But in the case of paganism "God did not author it" the practice is "condemned" without reference to "the wrong person insisted that you practice it".

Here you go again with the arrangement of the words. Where does it ever say "meat and drink, and holy day and new moon and sabbath are Jewish, and days and months and appointed times and years are pagan"? Where do you get that from? (Other than these scholars you've found who support your theory)? These are just two different ways of delineating the same things. There is no separate "FORMULA". You and the others just added that to support your hypothesis. Even your Col.2:16 list doesn't exacly match the list Carson gave us, so how do you know which is which then?
Actually, I'm surprised that you didn't admit Gal. was Jewish observances but do the same thing you pull in Col. and Rom. --"those were only the annual festivals". I guess this passage would have been too fatal to your agrument otherwise, so you had to argue that it is pagan practices.