For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people

[BrotherJoseph]

1 Timothy 1:15- Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners....

Let me tackle the next verse you posted to argue for your argument of universal atonement. Yes, it was God's mission to save sinners, but was it all sinners he came to save? If the answer is yes, but he didn't save all sinners, then He and His mission was a failure. That is not the God I serve, as my God was a 100% successful on saving those He came to save, this is why we read, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." Did he lose any of those? What saith the scripture, "thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21).

Now then, what specific sinners did Jesus come to save, it is those who under the Spirit of God recognize they are sinners and in need of a savior, this is what Jesus means when he says, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Luke 5:32). He said this to the self righteous Pharisees in Luke 5:30, in other words he has not calling the self righteous to repentance, but those who know they are sinners, these He can and will save-all of them. This is what Jesus meant when he said, "Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.(John 9:41).

Finally, I would point you the the Pharisee and the publican both who came to pray to God and thanks God he is not a sinner like the publican, the Pharisee prays naming all he has done for God, "11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. (Luke 18:11012), but the Publican prays, "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke 18:13). Jesus tells us the Publican was justified. God came to save sinners, and by this He means all who through the Holy Spirit's power believe they are sinners, need a savior, and recognize they cannot save themselves. All of these sinners he can and does save and this is what 1 Timothy 1:15 means when it says He "came to save sinners", however He did not come to save sinners who are self righteous and do not recognize they are sinners like the Pharisees.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

1 Timothy 2:6- Who gave himself a ransom for ALL...

Let me tackle the third verse you have posted. Yes he gave himself a "ransom for all", but again I ask is the "all" meaning all men who willl ever live or all of the elect who ever live? The verse answers itself. If a ransom is paid it cannot be collected twice, thus God could not collect the ransom for sin once in Christ, then a second time by sending that person to Hell as this would be both unjust and unholy, neither things which God is. Now we know some do go to Hell, therefore he couldn't as you have implied paid their ransom in Christ because they would be subject to double jeopardy. Scripture says the sacrifice of Christ "healed" those sinners it was intended for, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53:11), it also says it "perfected forever" those whom the sacrifice applied for, "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14), further the Bible says Jesus's blood actually justified and saved those whom it was shed for, "9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9). Finally, Jesus's sacrifice actually reconciled those whom it was intended for, "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life" (Romans 5:10). Therefore I conclude the following based upon the whole counsel of the Bible, becase His sacrifice ransomed, healed, , perfected forever, justified, saved, and reconciled those it applied to it cannot be for all human beings, otherwise you would have to conclude there are ransomed, healed, , perfected forever, justified, saved, and reconciled people in Hell and this is ludicrous. What you fail to understand is that His sacrifice didn't make these things potentially possible to His people, but actually accomplished them 2,000 years ago! Praise Jesus say I for His awesome power and away with your heretical teaching of a universal atonement!

 

[BrotherJoseph]

1 Timothy 4:10- ..we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, specially of those that believe.

Let me tackle the final verse you posted in defense of universal atonement? I have already proved Jesus could only be the Savior of all the elect men in history and this is also what is meant in this verse here. Consider this, if he was the savior of one who goes to hell for their sin, then what did He save them from? Nothing, therefore one cannot say he is the Savior of all human beings.

Now what does the verse mean when it says that he is savior of “all men, specially of those who believe”? Simple he is the savior of all the elect in history, but specially to those who presently already believe and know the truth of the gospel of what Christ has done for them. If a man has a million dollar inheritance coming that he doesn’t deserve from a kind, merciful father, and he knows it, he appreciates it much more, than the man who will inherit a million dollars, but does not yet know anyone will be willing him such a large sum of money. It does him no good when he is ignorant of it, thus he can’t be thankful for it In like manner, all those who already believe the gospel and are born again value and appreciate their eternal inheritance and what Christ has done for them that they don’t deserve, but those elect who Christ is also the Savior for, but are not yet born again and do not know the gospel cannot yet appreciate what Christ has done for them or their inheritance to come, however eventually, before they die all of the elect will know Christ as their personal savior and believe the gospel and thus be thankful.

If you have any other verses you wish to discuss please post them and I will do my best to answer them Lord willing.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

He doesn't waste His time with those whose hearts He sees
as being hopeless.

I think you'll find He does. 'You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.' He doesn't fool about with our hopeless hearts; He gives us new ones (Ezek. 36:26).

 

[Internet Theologian]

Sure, God's grace (unmerited favor) has been offered to all people.
And God sees whose hearts are acceptable to proceed further, i.e.
He doesn't waste His time with those whose hearts He sees
as being hopeless.

The above desecration needs addressed. You are implying that the change of heart is dependent upon man, and that therefore God does choose man based upon the ability of man himself. It's the same fallacy of Charles Grandison Finney, Arminianism, Semi and full Pelagianism and of most anti-Calvinists.

All men's hearts are hopeless, and no heart is better off than any other, accept for the grace of God.

 

[Browner]

All men's hearts are hopeless, and no heart is better off than any other, accept for the grace of God.

Would you like to consider those of the old covenant
whom God said were righteous (in His eyes)?
My favs are Zach 'n Liz.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Would you like to consider those of the old covenant
whom God said were righteous (in His eyes)?
My favs are Zach 'n Liz.

What is interesting is your flippant attitude concerning those who were righteous in God's eyes.

So, do tell, did these merit their own righteousness? How so?

 

[Browner]

So, do tell, did these (Zach 'n Liz) merit their own righteousness? How so?

It takes considerable effort (of different types) to live righteously!
This might just be why the NT suggests that we
"practice/work righteousness", 'cause only those who do such
are considered to be righteous in God's eyes.
However, some unnamed denoms don't have the first clue
how all of this works.

BTW, thou can call me Flip, if thou wishes.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Would you like to consider those of the old covenant
whom God said were righteous (in His eyes)?
My favs are Zach 'n Liz.

They needed a righteousness that exceeded that of the scribes and Pharisees (Matt. 5:20), and they wouldn't have found it in the works of the law (Rom. 3:20).
So where do you think they found righteousness in God's eyes?

 

[percho]

Let's take Abraham for example. He died in faith. The faith that he died in was, a seed, singular, to come, in which all the nations of the earth would be blessed, declared righteous, with Abraham who with that seed was given the promises. Gal 3:16,8,9 The seed of Abraham, Christ, to whom the promise was made would be the Son of God and even though being Son he must learn obedience through sufferings and become obedient unto death even the death of the cross Heb 5:7,8 Phil 2:8 which then would be the revealed faith to come through which the righteousness of God would be imputed.

And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:23-26 YLT

And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God -- being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that, in Christ Jesus, Rom 3:21-24 YLT

By grace (life) through the faith (the redemption, by death, shed blood) we are declared righteous. Adopted sons of God through the firstborn from the dead.

and when the fulness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law, that those under law he may redeem, that the adoption of sons we may receive; and because ye are sons, God did send forth the spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, 'Abba, Father!' so that thou art no more a servant, but a son, and if a son, also an heir of God through Christ. Gal 4:4-7 YLT

 

[Browner]

So where do you think they found righteousness in God's eyes?

Dey done found it in the NT where God said they were!

 

[tyndale1946]

Dey done found it in the NT where God said they were!

Dey done found it in the NT where God said they were!

I do not believe that God offers Salvation to all mankind but I do believe the author of this poem has hit the nail on the head... By William Cowper in the 1700!... Brother Glen

The Heart Healed And Changed By Mercy

Sin enslav'd me many years,
And led me bound and blind;
Till at length a thousand fears
Came swarming o'er my mind.
Where, I said in deep distress,
Will these sinful pleasures end?
How shall I secure my peace,
And make the LORD my friend?

Friends and ministers said much
The gospel to enforce;
But my blindness still was such,
I chose a legal course:
Much I fasted, watch'd and strove,
Scarce would show my face abroad,
Fear'd, almost, to speak or move,
A stranger still to GOD.

Thus afraid to trust his grace,
Long time did I rebel;
Till, despairing of my case,
Down at his feet I fell:
Then my stubborn heart he broke,
And subdu'd me to his sway;
By a simple word he spoke,
"Thy sins are done away."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Let me tackle the next verse you posted to argue for your argument of universal atonement. Yes, it was God's mission to save sinners, but was it all sinners he came to save? If the answer is yes, but he didn't save all sinners, then He and His mission was a failure. That is not the God I serve, as my God was a 100% successful on saving those He came to save, this is why we read, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." Did he lose any of those? What saith the scripture, "thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21).

Now then, what specific sinners did Jesus come to save, it is those who under the Spirit of God recognize they are sinners and in need of a savior, this is what Jesus means when he says, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Luke 5:32). He said this to the self righteous Pharisees in Luke 5:30, in other words he has not calling the self righteous to repentance, but those who know they are sinners, these He can and will save-all of them. This is what Jesus meant when he said, "Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.(John 9:41).

Finally, I would point you the the Pharisee and the publican both who came to pray to God and thanks God he is not a sinner like the publican, the Pharisee prays naming all he has done for God, "11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. (Luke 18:11012), but the Publican prays, "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke 18:13). Jesus tells us the Publican was justified. God came to save sinners, and by this He means all who through the Holy Spirit's power believe they are sinners, need a savior, and recognize they cannot save themselves. All of these sinners he can and does save and this is what 1 Timothy 1:15 means when it says He "came to save sinners", however He did not come to save sinners who are self righteous and do not recognize they are sinners like the Pharisees.

Some days Joe, I would sooner go into a bar and speak to sinners (that well know they are sinners and acknowledge it honestly) then to go to typical 'church' and deal with the many sanctimonious pharisees that populate those places.

 

[Rippon]

Tyndale, thank you for providing that poem by Cowper. He and John Newton were close friends.

 

[tyndale1946]

Tyndale, thank you for providing that poem by Cowper. He and John Newton were close friends.

My favorite hymn of all time is Amazing Grace... IMHO the best song ever written... Not only for it words but from the story behind it... Brother Glen

 

[percho]

Amazing Grace?

I graciously accept, your grace O God, and now I am saved by grace.

Is that the amazing grace by which we are saved? We heirs of the grace of life.

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


I or I?

 

[tyndale1946]

Amazing Grace?

I graciously accept, your grace O God, and now I am saved by grace.

Is that the amazing grace by which we are saved? We heirs of the grace of life.

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


I or I?

1. Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
   That saved a wretch like me!
   I once was lost, but now am found;
   Was blind, but now I see.
2. ’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
   And grace my fears relieved;
   How precious did that grace appear
   The hour I first believed.
3. Through many dangers, toils and snares,
   I have already come;
   ’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
   And grace will lead me home.
4. The Lord has promised good to me,
   His Word my hope secures;
   He will my Shield and Portion be,
   As long as life endures.
5. Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
   And mortal life shall cease,
   I shall possess, within the veil,
   A life of joy and peace.
6. The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
   The sun forbear to shine;
   But God, who called me here below,
   Will be forever mine.
7. When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
   Bright shining as the sun,
   We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
   Than when we’d first begun.

Do you think this song is about the sinner patting himself upon the back for what he has done for the Lord?... Correct me if I'm wrong you seem to?... Does anyone else on here see this attitude in the song Amazing Grace?... I see a wretched sinner which is what we all are, thanking his God from the very depth of his heart and soul thanking God for his Grace that is Amazing... If you have never sang this song acapella I suggest you do so?... Then when tears are running down your cheeks because the words of this song have touched your very heart and soul... Then you can understand this song and how Amazing this Grace is "THAT NONE OF US HERE DESERVED"... Brother Glen

 

[percho]

1. Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
   That saved a wretch like me!
   I once was lost, but now am found;
   Was blind, but now I see.
2. ’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
   And grace my fears relieved;
   How precious did that grace appear
   The hour I first believed.
3. Through many dangers, toils and snares,
   I have already come;
   ’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
   And grace will lead me home.
4. The Lord has promised good to me,
   His Word my hope secures;
   He will my Shield and Portion be,
   As long as life endures.
5. Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
   And mortal life shall cease,
   I shall possess, within the veil,
   A life of joy and peace.
6. The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
   The sun forbear to shine;
   But God, who called me here below,
   Will be forever mine.
7. When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
   Bright shining as the sun,
   We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
   Than when we’d first begun.

Do you think this song is about the sinner patting himself upon the back for what he has done for the Lord?... Correct me if I'm wrong you seem to?... Does anyone else on here see this attitude in the song Amazing Grace?... I see a wretched sinner which is what we all are, thanking his God from the very depth of his heart and soul thanking God for his Grace that is Amazing... If you have never sang this song acapella I suggest you do so?... Then when tears are running down your cheeks because the words of this song have touched your very heart and soul... Then you can understand this song and how Amazing this Grace is "THAT NONE OF US HERE DESERVED"... Brother Glen

No, I like you think it to be one of the great, if not, the greatest hymn.

My post was just to say, I believe that grace is all of God, not man's response to God. I believe grace came, because of the Son's response to the Father. All of God.

 

[tyndale1946]

No, I like you think it to be one of the great, if not, the greatest hymn.

My post was just to say, I believe that grace is all of God, not man's response to God. I believe grace came, because of the Son's response to the Father. All of God.

My mistake... I thought you were leaning?... Only to find out you were!... Leaning On The Everlasting Arms... Brother GlenBiggrin

 

[percho]

Is this > And being made perfect, {he became the author of eternal salvation} unto all them that obey him; Heb 5:9 this > For the grace of God {that bringeth salvation} hath appeared to all men,?