Originally posted by mman:
I describe a faith that is alive, the only type of faith this is pleasing to God.
There is only one type of faith. You can find a good working definition in the dictionary if you wish. But COCers love to play with words, and dissect them every which way. It becomes a matter of semantics. Frank once posted about five different kinds of works. Am I correct on that? Or are there even more?? You remind me of BA&A, with whom we round and round in circles about faith. He wouldn't accept any dictionary definition of faith. Nor could he define it himself. The trouble that you have in your post here:
a wrong definition of faith. Before you begin talking about living faith, dead faith, righteous faith, etc. you must know what faith is. Come to an understanding of what is faith. I will give you a working definition.
Faith is confidence in the Word of another.
Biblical faith is confidence in the Word of God.
People exercise faith everyday. If I take a taxi to the airport, and I ask him to do so, I have faith in his word that he will take me to the airport, and not to the museum. I have confidence in his word. Faith is confidence or trust that what he said he will do.
I have faith that when I put my car key into the ignition of my car and turn it that my car will start. 99% of the time it does. When it doesn't that one per cent, has my faith failed? Not at all. The car has failed. It was made by man and man is fallibe.
But I can put my faith, my confidence in the Word of God, who never fails, and be confident that what he has said that He will perform.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
--God doesn't fail. He is infallible. It is man that fails.
Look at Abraham, a man of faith, who defines faith for us.
Romans 4:20-21 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--First, Abraham was strong in faith. The promises of God were against all human odds; but he did not "stagger" or his faith did not waver.
--Second, He was fully persuaded. That is he was fully confident. Faith is confidence. He was confident that what God had promised he was able to perform. That is faith--confidence in God's Word; confidence in the promises of God. That is what Abraham had. We do not define it in terms of living and dead. He was confident that what God had said he was able to do. That is what faith is. There is no such thing as "living" faith. It does not have some magical intrinsic "living" quality to it. You are delving into the realm of the metaaphysical and even paranormal to attach "living" to faith. Faith is confidence. That is all. We all have faith. We use it every day. You have faith every time you open a door that that door will open. Who knows? Some day that door may not open; it may jar or jam, or get stuck in some way. You demonstrate your faith in so many ways each and every way. It is simple confidence in the things you take for granted every day. Faith in God is the same way, except that we ought not to take it for granted. However there is no faith in baptism. Baptism is direct obedience to a command. You obey. That doesn't take faith. It takes obedience. The two concepts are far apart from each other.
In Heb 11, it is evident that faith is belief/trust plus obedience.
You say faith does not equal obedience and never has. Let's put that to the test.
I say faith equals belief plus obedience. You imply faith equals belief only. Let's substitute the two definitions and see which one fits best.
Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
1) By believing God and obeying Him the walls of Jericho fell ...
2) By only believing God the walls of Jericho fell...
Since the walls fell by faith, did they fall because they only believed or did they fall because they believed AND obeyed? Surely nobody thinks the walls would have fallen if they had not obeyed. Remember, they fell by faith.
Your exegesis is wrong.
Remeber the definition of faith--confidence in the promises of God; confidence in the Word of another. They had confidence in the Word of God that what God had promised He would do. Thus the walls fell in accordance to God's promise. God's promise was that if they would walk around the city the walls would fall. That was conditional. Many of his promises are not conditional. Salvation is not conditiona. It is by grace. Anything by grace is an unconditional promise, otherwise it nullifies grace. See Romans 11:6
Note also that COCer take these Old Testament examples out of their context and apply them to salvation. The Israelites were already saved. This has to do with the Christian walk, not with salvation. In application God is saying to believers walk in my paths and you will be blessed. There is nothing about salvation here. They were already a saved people. Everyone of the Heb.11 illustrations are taken out of context by you because they speak of a people that are already saved, not by people that are unsaved and seeking salvation.
In James 2:23, when was the scriptured was fulfilled that said, "Abraham believed God"? It was after he obeyed.[qb]
So is your position that Abraham was unsaved when God spoke to him and told him to leave Ur of Chaldees. And your position is that Abraham was still unsaved when he left Haran, God speaking to him there as well. Were the deede of Abraham recorded in Genesis 11 all done while Abraham was unsaved?? James 2:23 refers specifically to the work of Abraham offering Isaac. So you contend that Abraham was unsaved before then! Is that your position??
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[qb]
You describe a faith that is dead, a faith apart from works. I describe a faith that is active and alive (James 2).
Get a right definition of faith, and quit dealing with the paranormal. Faith is not magical.
I know your reluctance to say that faith includes obedience is because of Eph 2:8-9.
The Bible doesn't contradict itself. And you fail to understand this verse. "For
by grace are ye saved through faith..." If salvation is by grace then it is not of works including baptism and any other kind of obedience. Jesus paid it all. Man pays nothing--not baptism, not any work at all--nothing.
Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.
--Augustus M. Toplady
That is why you must reject that baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), that baptism washes away our sins (Acts 22:16), that "he that believes and is baptized shall be saved" (which really means "he that believes and is saved shall be baptized", right???), that baptism now saves us (I Pet 3:21), that baptism puts us into Christ (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:26-27).
These verses have all been explained, one by one, to you before. Most of them you take out of context.
What merit is there in being immersed? What could that possibly earn? Nothing. People are immersed all the time in swimming pools, in the waters along the beach, in many ways and various times.
Check Romans 6:3,4. It gives you a good explanation. It is symbolic. It is symbolic of our death to our old life of sin (buried), and our rising again to a new life in Christ.
DHK
I'll lean on the promises.
