For those who speak in tongues...

[tamborine lady]

Brother James asked: What about apparitions? Are they scriptural? Can Satan work miracles?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tam says: No apparitions are not scriptural.

Yes satan can work "something", and at the time it might seem like a miracle, but it should be called witchcraft.

Peace,

Tam

 

[atestring]

Hey Briguy ,
Is your daughter ok?

Atestring

 

[Ray Berrian]

Love is the greatest gift we can have in our hearts and give to the Lord and to other people.

Keep in mind that prophecy/preaching is the next greatest gift--with the 'gift of tongues' being the least if it is experienced in private prayer.

Tongues with interpretation is valuable if used in some congregations.

Teachers of the Word are more important than 'tongues.' This is all found in I Cor. 12 & 14 if you take a period of time to study it.

 

[Bro. James]

"And now abideth these three: Faith, Hope, and Love; the greatest of these is Love."

Read the context: there are only three gifts which remain after "that which is perfect" is come. They are sufficient with "that which is perfect",(mature, full grown, complete) i.e. the Word of God, the 66 books.

Choose wisely, Satan himself is become an angel of light.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[D28guy]

Bro. James,

You are choosing to not take into considersation another passage from this part of Gods word.

Included with "that which is perfect" is something that comes up a couple verses or so further down, where it says this...

"For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I am known. And no abide faith hope and love, these 3. But the greatest of these is love"

We will not "know" just as we are "known" until we arrive in heaven.

That is when the earthly gifts of the Spirit will no longer be needed.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

D28guy,

Your post is correct. What a day that will be!

 

[Bro. James]

How do we get more than three out of: "and now abideth these three: faith, hope, and love"?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[D28guy]

Bro James,

"How do we get more than three out of: "and now abideth these three: faith, hope, and love"?"

Faith, hope and love can not be overemphasised.

We are born again by faith alone, and we are to walk by faith. We have hope like no-one else on earth. And of course we are to walk in Christs love, and extend it to others.

In adition, faith hope and love are gifts of the Spirit that are given to everyone...with no exceptions. We all have those. The other gifts...such as the "sign" gifts...are distributed to folks as God wills. Some recieving this, and some recieving that.

But why does emphasising faith hope and love mean we must therefore exclude the other gifts?

I see nothing in the scriptures to indicate this, particularly in light of these passages, from the very section of scripture you guys keep going to...

"Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you prophesy".

"What is the conclusion, then? I will pray with the Spirit, I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the Spirit, I will also sing with the understanding."

"Therefore brethren, desire earnestly that you prophesy, and do no forbid to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.

In adition, from earlier in the same book...

"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,

to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,

to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills."


And concerning the personal prayer language that some seem so disturbed by...

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him. However, in the Spirit he speaks mysteries"

God bless,

Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

D28Guy,

From Pennsylvania to Berea Kentucky--the Lord's words seem all too clear to me.

He did not place a time line on these verses as to when this occurance should end other than in I Corinthians 13:10 at the return of the Lord for His people.

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
D28Guy,

From Pennsylvania to Berea Kentucky--the Lord's words seem all too clear to me.

He did not place a time line on these verses as to when this occurance should end other than in I Corinthians 13:10 at the return of the Lord for His people.

As long as we are still living in the last days theres no time line. Joel 2:28- 32 & Acts 2:17

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother James,

You said, 'Read the context: there are only three gifts which remain after "that which is perfect" is come. They are sufficient with "that which is perfect",(mature, full grown, complete) i.e. the Word of God, the 66 books.'

This is a totally wrong view as you have picked this up in some poor commentary but probably from some Baptist type who believes the 'gifts of the Spirit' are no longer used by the Lord.

If your new view is as you have stated then as soon as the Canon of Scripture was complete we no long need the 'gift of tongues' or the 'interpretation of tongues' as a message from the Lord to His church.

What makes this wrong is you cann just extract the word 'tongues' and leave in the text 'charity/love,''prophecies' and (spiritual) knowledge.' If this were true you would not be able to learn new spiritual truth from the Bible, nor would you have learned enough to become saved ever.

When Jesus comes at the Second Coming there will no longer be the need for 'preaching, tongues, or the knowledge that leads to salvation because Jesus' Age of Grace and Spirit will have come to an end. Thus, these things will cease. Charity/love will always prevail throughout eternity.

After the Age of Grace is over Jesus will begin His earthly Millinimum as repeatedly explained to us in Revelation chapter twenty. It will be 1,000 years of the Lord's theocracy where representative s from all nations will come to Israel to worship and bring gifts to Him [Zechariah 14:1-21 especially note vss. 9 & 17]. This event will become true because no where in all of time did Jesus allow people to come to Jerusalem to venerate Him on His throne. Notice the House of the Lord in verse twenty which will be His Millennial Temple in Jerusalem. Micah the prophet told us of a day when Jesus will be Ruler in Israel. To date this has never been a historical event, so it has to be future to our times [Michah 5:2]. I must stop because now we are into prophecy of the future in God's plan for the ages.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[Bro. James]

"And now abideth these three: faith, hope and love."

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Briguy]

Thanks to all who prayed for my daughter. We went to the "Childrens Hospital of WI" thinking that for sure my daughter would need a brace for her back. The 30 degree curve in her spine, which is moderate Scoliosis turned to a 22 degree curve just by having her put one foot on a 1/2 inch board. At 22 degrees the doctor wanted to try my daughter with just a lift in her shoe. The lift will have to be special made and will olny fit in some shoes but it beats a brace any day. We were very relieved and thankful to God. Now, the brace is possible if the curve gets worse but she will be monitored and time will tell.

To Ray, I have many times shown how Tongues ends at a different time then the other gifts. "cease" in Greek, as used for when tongues will end, is a reflexative word in a passive voice and means that they will fade away on their own, just like a candle burning out. Nothing causes them to end. They were a sign and pointed to the judgement of Isreal in 70AD and after what the sign pointed to happened, they just faded away.

M4H, I showed before how Peter did not quote Joel to say that the final days were upon us. Peter was saying that what the people saw was like what Joel talked about, that being a great out-pouring of the Hoily Spirit. Please think about that. Peter is saying that what they saw with the Apostles and others speaking languages they did not know, was a great Holy Spirit out-pouring, like what Joel talked about. If after a football game a coach says to the team he plays next, "Did you see what we did to that team today, we are going to do to you what we did to them" It is a comparrison. Think about it, Joel doesn't mention "Tongues" but that was the primary thing that happened in front of the poeple Peter was addressing. Also, most of what Joel said has not happened yet. By your way of looking at the what Peter said we are in the last or final days for 2000 years. What Joel said will happen indeed, but we are not there yet. A great out-pouring like the day of Pentecost will come again, probably even greater. With it will come miracles and the supernatural on people and nature.

I know I have other questions to answer from a couple pages ago. I will get to those later today or tomorrow.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Thanks to all who prayed for my daughter. We went to the "Childrens Hospital of WI" thinking that for sure my daughter would need a brace for her back. The 30 degree curve in her spine, which is moderate Scoliosis turned to a 22 degree curve just by having her put one foot on a 1/2 inch board. At 22 degrees the doctor wanted to try my daughter with just a lift in her shoe. The lift will have to be special made and will olny fit in some shoes but it beats a brace any day. We were very relieved and thankful to God. Now, the brace is possible if the curve gets worse but she will be monitored and time will tell.

To Ray, I have many times shown how Tongues ends at a different time then the other gifts. "cease" in Greek, as used for when tongues will end, is a reflexative word in a passive voice and means that they will fade away on their own, just like a candle burning out. Nothing causes them to end. They were a sign and pointed to the judgement of Isreal in 70AD and after what the sign pointed to happened, they just faded away.

M4H, I showed before how Peter did not quote Joel to say that the final days were upon us. Peter was saying that what the people saw was like what Joel talked about, that being a great out-pouring of the Hoily Spirit. Please think about that. Peter is saying that what they saw with the Apostles and others speaking languages they did not know, was a great Holy Spirit out-pouring, like what Joel talked about. If after a football game a coach says to the team he plays next, "Did you see what we did to that team today, we are going to do to you what we did to them" It is a comparrison. Think about it, Joel doesn't mention "Tongues" but that was the primary thing that happened in front of the poeple Peter was addressing. Also, most of what Joel said has not happened yet. By your way of looking at the what Peter said we are in the last or final days for 2000 years. What Joel said will happen indeed, but we are not there yet. A great out-pouring like the day of Pentecost will come again, probably even greater. With it will come miracles and the supernatural on people and nature.

I know I have other questions to answer from a couple pages ago. I will get to those later today or tomorrow.

In Christ,
Brian

Ain"t God good!!!!!
I hope things get even better for your daughter.
Atestring

 

[Briguy]

Thanks Atestring, I knew you in particular were praying and that means a lot. Praying for and having concern for others is what the Christian life is all about!!! Love in action. Paul stressed that in the verses we have been discussing. And yes, God is good and I feel very blessed. I just heard from my wife that when she went to the orthodic (sp?) place today to get the lift, the man working there was very nice. What we thought was going to cost hundreds of dollars only cost $25. The man lowered the price for no reason. Our insurance did not cover the lift and we had heard if they put the lift in the sole of the shoe it is costly. Well, they were able to make a lift that worked fine and it can fit inside any laced shoe. We picked this place to go from a list of many. I guess God picked it for us. I am a social worker and we home school so finances are always tight and God seems to work things out for us when we least expect it. If my daughter had needed the brace we would have had to pay $750 deductable and then some. Thanks again for the prayers, things worked out way better then we had thought they would.

Sorry about this post being off-subject.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[music4Him]

Thats ok Brian, Glad to hear how good the Lord is.

We'll be praying that the lift will be all she needs to adjust her back.

Now that I'm here though......

quote by Brian:
-------------------------------------------------
M4H, I showed before how Peter did not quote Joel to say that the final days were upon us. Peter was saying that what the people saw was like what Joel talked about, that being a great out-pouring of the Hoily Spirit. Please think about that. Peter is saying that what they saw with the Apostles and others speaking languages they did not know, was a great Holy Spirit out-pouring, like what Joel talked about.
-------------------------------------------------
Yes I have thought about it and while doing so I go to the prophet Joel and read the whole prophecy. I still do not see any indication that it will fade. It does however give a idea of how long the Lord will pour out His Spirit. Maybe your not reading or understanding the passage the same as I do?

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Briguy,

Brian, first I am glad you called to our attention your daughter's need and improvement of her condition. I had two boys and a daughter and I know your depth of love for her. I will pray for her as the Spirit reminds me.

You said,

To Ray, I have many times shown how Tongues ends at a different time then the other gifts. "cease" in Greek, as used for when tongues will end, is a reflexative word in a passive voice and means that they will fade away on their own, just like a candle burning out. Nothing causes them to end. They were a sign and pointed to the judgement of Isreal in 70AD and after what the sign pointed to happened, they just faded away.

I would agree with you that the 'gifts of the Spirit' will fade away as you said, but Biblical teaching lets us know that this will be at His coming for the church. I do not speak with tongues and yet I recognize that we cannot black out some verses in the Bible that our denominational leaders do not like. Once you do this you might be tempted to disbelieve some of Jesus' miracles.

You have no corroborating Scripture that says that 'the gift of tongues' ended exactly with the Fall of Jerusalem. It is, however, a clever way to patch up some bad theology. [End Quote]

You said,

M4H, I showed before how Peter did not quote Joel to say that the final days were upon us. Peter was saying that what the people saw was like what Joel talked about, that being a great out-pouring of the Hoily Spirit. Please think about that. Peter is saying that what they saw with the Apostles and others speaking languages they did not know, was a great Holy Spirit out-pouring, like what Joel talked about. If after a football game a coach says to the team he plays next, "Did you see what we did to that team today, we are going to do to you what we did to them" It is a comparrison. Think about it, Joel doesn't mention "Tongues" but that was the primary thing that happened in front of the poeple Peter was addressing. Also, most of what Joel said has not happened yet. By your way of looking at the what Peter said we are in the last or final days for 2000 years. What Joel said will happen indeed, but we are not there yet. A great out-pouring like the day of Pentecost will come again, probably even greater. With it will come miracles and the supernatural on people and nature.

The last paragraph seems to be within Biblical teaching and I hope that a revival will take place in different parts of the world because of the working of the Holy Spirit.

I am praying that God will save a lot of Islamic people in all parts of the world. This is my present prayer concern that I daily lay before the Lord. [End Quote].

And by the way, I am not anti-Baptist because my wife and I are attending First Baptist Church in Bethlehem on Linden Street. They are adding more construction. The pastor preaches practical messages which are a help to both of us.

My love goes out to your daughter that she will experience the healing of our Lord and by your medical professionals.

 

[Briguy]

Ray and M4H, Thanks for your prayers, God did answer in a wonderful way. I appreciate that you keep praying for her as well as the next few months will determine what will happen in terms of a brace.

Ray, only tongues faded away. The Greek word that talks about prophecy and knowledge ending (same text as tongues above) is a whole different word and it means that something will make them end. That something is then said to be the coming of the "perfect". What that is would be a different thread. At any rate I believe Paul used 2 different words for a reason. He was showing us 2 different ending points for those gifts. Whether the non-sign gifts ended or not is a subject I am still in debate about. I go back and forth on it. The scripture and practical arguments are very good for both positions. Anyway, Tongues were very special and that is why Paul singles them out. They were different. They showed God's chosen people that God was going to judge them just as Isaiah had said he would. Paul quotes Isaiah to show us that very thing.

M4H, the Joel prophecy can't fade because it hasn't happen yet. It will happen right before the very end when God's final judgement falls and His great and terible day comes. That could be hundreds of years from now for all we know. Seems like it will be sooner but only God knows. Peter just said that what happened at pentecost was an event like what Joel spoke about. Joel's event has not come. Tongues are not part of Joel's prophecy but both events show an out-pouring of the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[tamborine lady]

My heart goes out to thise who try to explain away parts of the bible that they don't want/see/understand.

There is the "that was for the Jews" theory. Or the "it ended in 70 AD" theory.

But just because we have never seen something doesn't mean it can't happen.

I believe that all the promises to the Jewish people were past on to us (gentiles) because the Jews rejected it. Therefore the whole bible is good for learning and reproof and teaching, etc.

Therefore whatever Jesus said to the scribes, pharisees, and hypocrits fits some people today.

Also, the Holy Ghost comes to lead us to all truth. Nothing faded away, Nothing ceased. It will when Jesus returns, but not yet.

We are still in the last days that Joel spoke of. It has been going on for 2000 years.

Is anybody listening???

Selah,

Tam

 

[Ray Berrian]

Once you start excising Scripture you are no better than the liberal churchmen who disbelieve the miracles of Christ. We have no right to remove any Scripture as though it were not for Christians today [Revelation 22:19].

Once were move into this venue we place a choke hold on the Holy Spirit of God. This is anti-God even when Christians restrict the working of the Holy Spirit.

The Apostle Paul said that he wished that all Christians spoke in tongues [I Corinthians 14:5], though the greater gift is preaching.

The Corinthian Church were anxious to receive from the Lord the 'spiritual gifts,' though the other churches did not seem to focus on them [I Corinthians 14:12].

Those who speak with tongues do not understand what they are praying to the Lord, but He obviously understands [I Corinthians 14:14]. But, not all Christians have this gift [I Cor. 12:30].

Perhaps the greatest apostle claimed that he spoke 'in tongues' to the Lord more than any of the saints [I Cor. 14:18].

Tongues were a sign to UNBELIEVERS [I Cor. 14:22] so they knew that God was doing something special with this group called Christians.

Isaiah the prophet preached about a day when Christians would speak in tongues [Isaiah 28ll].

Paul wanted order [I Cor. 14:33a] in Divine worship even in the use of tongues and the interpretation of the message. Only up to three times was this to happen during one service [I Cor. 14:27].

God reminds the Corinthian Church that they should prefer to preach so that sinners understand in their own language. But he adds, do not try to circumvent 'speaking in tongues.' To do this is to quench the Spirit and once He leaves a church gathering, it requires the repentance of all who push Him out.

I Corinthians 13 is a most clear indication when the gifts of the Spirit will cease; it will be at the coming of our Lord [vs. 8-13]. When we see Jesus face to face we will not need knowledge, tongues or preaching any longer. We will be in Heaven with the Lord and will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ to be evaluated not for whether or not we are saved, but for the 'works'we have done while on earth. Rewards will be given to all faithful Christians.

Tamborine Lady I am hearing you. I thank the Lord that you bow to the Word and not to a denominational presupposition.

Berrian, Th.D.