For those who want to know the Free Grace view of calvinism / arminianism...

[webdog]

A response to calvinist's and arminians view of TULIP (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistable Grace, Perseverance of the Saints)

from www.faithalone.org

T... http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2003i/badger.html

U...
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2003ii/badger.html

L...
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2004i/badger.html

I...
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2004ii/badger.html

P...
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1998i/Hodges.html

 

[EdSutton]

WD, I've only scanned the first one, but tend to be in basic agreement with the premises put forth. I will have to study

this more closely. I suspect you and I are fairly close on this, at first glance.

In His grace,
Ed

 

[bjonson]

Can we take another post on Calvinism?

Ugh.

 

[webdog]

Obviously you have a hard time reading. This thread is not about calvinism. It's about the Free Grace Theology position and how it relates to calvinism / arminianism, and TULIP.

From page 1:

"We will carefully consider the truth claims of both Calvinists and Arminians and arrive at some conclusions that may not suit either. Our purpose here is not to defend a system, but to understand the truth. The conflicting “isms” in this study (Calvinism and Arminianism) are often considered “sacred cows” and, as a result, seem to be solidified and in need of defense. They have become impediments in the search for truth and “barriers to learning.” Perhaps the emphatic dogmatism and defense of the paradoxical views of Calvinism and Arminianism have impeded the theological search for truth much more than we realize"

[ February 08, 2006, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: webdog ]

 

[bjonson]

webdog,


No, I don't have a "hard time reading".

[ February 09, 2006, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by bjonson:
Can we take another post on Calvinism?

Ugh.

Sadly, the forum that quarantined Cal/Arm discussions was closed and so we get thread after thread clogging up the system here.

It was predestined . .

 

[bjonson]

webdog,

I found this statement from the website which you referenced above:

"No act of obedience, preceding or following faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, such as commitment to obey, sorrow for sin, turning from one’s sin, baptism or submission to the Lordship of Christ, may be added to, or considered part of, faith as a condition for receiving everlasting life (Rom 4:5; Gal 2:16; Titus 3:5). This saving transaction between God and the sinner is simply the giving and receiving of a free gift (Eph 2:8-9; John 4:10 ; Rev 22:17 ). "

Do you believe this? Do you believe repentance is NOT necessary to be saved?

 

[James_Newman]

I believe that.

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by webdog:
Obviously you have a hard time reading. This thread is not about calvinism. It's about the Free Grace Theology position and how it relates to calvinism / arminianism, and TULIP.

From page 1:

"We will carefully consider the truth claims of both Calvinists and Arminians and arrive at some conclusions that may not suit either. Our purpose here is not to defend a system, but to understand the truth. The conflicting “isms” in this study (Calvinism and Arminianism) are often considered “sacred cows” and, as a result, seem to be solidified and in need of defense. They have become impediments in the search for truth and “barriers to learning.” Perhaps the emphatic dogmatism and defense of the paradoxical views of Calvinism and Arminianism have impeded the theological search for truth much more than we realize"

I love how Free-Gracers see themselves above the fray. Oh those silly Calvinists and Arminians with their man-made systems. We only seek the truth...blah, blah, blah. Free-Grace theology is just as much of 'system' as C or A.

The bottom line of Free Grace theology is that they answer Paul's question in Romans 6:1 - YES!!! - Sin all you want, because all you have to do is believe in the facts of the Gospel and you are saved. Pathetic.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by bjonson:
webdog,

I found this statement from the website which you referenced above:

"No act of obedience, preceding or following faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, such as commitment to obey, sorrow for sin, turning from one’s sin, baptism or submission to the Lordship of Christ, may be added to, or considered part of, faith as a condition for receiving everlasting life (Rom 4:5; Gal 2:16; Titus 3:5). This saving transaction between God and the sinner is simply the giving and receiving of a free gift (Eph 2:8-9; John 4:10 ; Rev 22:17 ). "

Do you believe this? Do you believe repentance is NOT necessary to be saved?

Absolutely. "For by grace you are saved through faith and repentance..." is just not there.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
Obviously you have a hard time reading. This thread is not about calvinism. It's about the Free Grace Theology position and how it relates to calvinism / arminianism, and TULIP.

From page 1:

"We will carefully consider the truth claims of both Calvinists and Arminians and arrive at some conclusions that may not suit either. Our purpose here is not to defend a system, but to understand the truth. The conflicting “isms” in this study (Calvinism and Arminianism) are often considered “sacred cows” and, as a result, seem to be solidified and in need of defense. They have become impediments in the search for truth and “barriers to learning.” Perhaps the emphatic dogmatism and defense of the paradoxical views of Calvinism and Arminianism have impeded the theological search for truth much more than we realize"

I love how Free-Gracers see themselves above the fray. Oh those silly Calvinists and Arminians with their man-made systems. We only seek the truth...blah, blah, blah. Free-Grace theology is just as much of 'system' as C or A.

The bottom line of Free Grace theology is that they answer Paul's question in Romans 6:1 - YES!!! - Sin all you want, because all you have to do is believe in the facts of the Gospel and you are saved. Pathetic. </font>[/QUOTE]According to you, then, all truth in the Bible has to fit into a "system" as you call it. That's "pathetic".

YES!!! - Sin all you want, because all you have to do is believe in the facts of the Gospel and you are saved.

For all of the cries by the calvinist's of "you do not know what we really believe", your comment proves likewise. What is truly "pathetic" is that a person's justification or judging thereof can depend on works.

[ February 09, 2006, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by bjonson:
webdog,

No, I don't have a "hard time reading".

The title of the thread tells exactly what the thread is about. Your sarcastic "ugh...not another calvinism thread" was what was unnecessary, as this is not solely about calvinism.

[ February 09, 2006, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[Andy T.]

Webdog,

All your whining against "systems" is just as much of a "system" as anything else. Even if you say "there are no systems that explain biblical truth" - that in itself is a system (a contradictory one, BTW), by which you attempt to explain what you believe.

The point is, we all have systems of explaining what we believe and why we believe it. Some systems are more organized, more formal, more conistent than others, but nonetheless, we all have a system.

[ February 09, 2006, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[webdog]

All your whining against "systems" is just as much of a "system" as anything else. Even if you say "there are no systems that explain biblical truth" - that in itself is a system (a contradictory one, BTW), by which you attempt to explain what you believe.

Everything, in the world, I guess is a system (according to you).

I don't believe falling under any "man's system" for 100% correct theology as being on a "high horse". It's actually quite careless.

[ February 09, 2006, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[Andy T.]

So what is that Free-Grace website other than words written by men??? I guess that makes it a man-made system, too.

Debate the differences in systems (i.e., beliefs) all day long,

[ February 09, 2006, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[webdog]

Not every word spoken or written by man means they are "systematic". If I disagree with calvinism and arminianism on a point, what then? Do I look for another "system", or do I compare both to the Bible? You must think that the Bible is only a "system".

[ February 09, 2006, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[Andy T.]

The Calvinist believes A, B and C - that is his system.

The Arminian believes D, E, and F - that is his system.

Webdog believes X, Y and Z - that is his system.

It's not that complicated.

 

[webdog]

It's not that simple...

The Calvinist believes A, B and C - that is his system.
Say I disagree with C.
The Arminian believes D, E, and F - that is his system.
Say I disagree with E.

What then? Am I creating a "system" if I disagree with these points because I feel they differ from what the Bible says? NO!

Webdog believes X, Y and Z - that is his system.
Do not make me out to look like I believe something totally different apart from God's Word!

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by webdog:
It's not that simple...

The Calvinist believes A, B and C - that is his system.
Say I disagree with C.
The Arminian believes D, E, and F - that is his system.
Say I disagree with E.

What then? Am I creating a "system" if I disagree with these points because I feel they differ from what the Bible says? NO!

Webdog believes X, Y and Z - that is his system.
Do not make me out to look like I believe something totally different apart from God's Word!

The ABC's were meant as an illustration, and since you gave further example, we'll clarify this:

Webdog believes A, B, D and F - that is his system.

You see, a system is just another word for person's total beliefs. I assume you have beliefs, so the totality of your beliefs are your system. Everyone has one - it is inescapable. I'm not trying to attack your beliefs; I'm just trying to show you that you have beliefs.

 

[Dave]

"No act of obedience, preceding or following faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, such as commitment to obey, sorrow for sin, turning from one’s sin, baptism or submission to the Lordship of Christ, may be added to, or considered part of, faith as a condition for receiving everlasting life (Rom 4:5; Gal 2:16; Titus 3:5). This saving transaction between God and the sinner is simply the giving and receiving of a free gift (Eph 2:8-9; John 4:10 ; Rev 22:17 ). "
[/QB]

This ignores the need for repentence which Jesus proclaimed during his earthly ministry.

I think where we get confused is an inadequate understanding of what saving faith is. It is required that we have faith in someone. That someone is God. God is an absolutely righteous being and cannot abide sin.

If we understand that, and acknowledge our place before him, then and only then do we see our need for a saviour. Once you understand this, you have a choice to make - repent of your sin and cry out to God for mercy, or believe the FACT of the sacrifice of God's son as payment for our sins, assume it applies to you because you decided it must, and continue on in an unchanged life. The first choice leads to new life in Christ, the second leads to deceiving ourselves.