For Whom Did Christ Die?... By John Owen

[kyredneck]

I believe the bible

You believe what you want from the Bible. Not going down your rabbit hole. Have the last word.

 

[Brightfame52]

Well. That's just J.C. Ryle. What does he know.

I quoted you Paul, so what does he know !

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Faith IS immaterial to the eternal aspect of our salvation in which we are totally passive. It is however of great consequence in this temporal realm.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Heb 4; See Romans 3:3-4

Referring to those redeemed from the House of Bondage by Jehovah, they were preached the gospel that the Land of Milk & Honey was theirs's for the taking, and they rejected the gospel.

Yet, even after all the wickedness Israel had done after God had redeemed them out of the House of Bondage (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21

Even in unbelief and disobedience they were as righteous as Christ in the eyes of God. (Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)

But Israel still yet reaped in this temporal realm for their wickedness after being redeemed from the House of Bondage, they wandered for forty years in the waste places when they could have possessed the Land of Milk and Honey, the Sabbath Rest of God, i.e., the abundant life in Christ. Romans 14:17

Yet during all their wandering/chastening in the Wilderness He still yet gave them shade by day and light by night, He fed them manna, gave them water, their clothes never wore out, their feet didn't blister, etc., He was with them always.

So you see, there were only temporal consequences for their unbelief. There were no eternal consequences. Christ's atonement for His own covers the sin of unbelief.

5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ: 1 Cor 5

Ya done good!

 

[DaveXR650]

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Everyone Jesus Christ died for has to their account, forgiveness of sins, its automatic by the simple fact Christ died for them, its a fact even while they are ungodly, unbelieving enemies.

But the problem is you use a partial quote and then neglect the rest of what Paul said. What do you think might be "the ministry of reconciliation" if it's all automatic. It wasn't Paul who said it was "automatic". It was you.

 

[Brightfame52]

But the problem is you use a partial quote and then neglect the rest of what Paul said. What do you think might be "the ministry of reconciliation" if it's all automatic. It wasn't Paul who said it was "automatic". It was you.

There is no problem. Im highlighting truth. Now the ministry of reconciliation is God using the Gospel to promote Faith in the ones already reconciled, righteous by and through Christ.

 

[Van]

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

All the sins of all men.
All the sins of some men, or
Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, “Because of unbelief.”

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!”... Brother Glen

Yet another old and off the shelf chestnut from the library of Calvinist false claims.
The Son underwent the punishment sufficient to forgive the sin of anyone and everyone God chooses to forgive.
The washing of regeneration results in the individual being made blameless, perfect and righteous, all their sin, past, present and future are forgiven.
Since all those to be chosen, elected for salvation, have not yet been chosen, Christ did not die for the specific sins of anyone who obtained approval through faith after Christ died.
All humans are not free from the punishment due to their sin, because all humans have not received the reconciliation.

This is really quite a simple concept!

 

[37818]

. . . due to their sin, . . .

Children merely conceived have do to that a death do to a sin nature received. But not immediately do to their own sin.

 

[tyndale1946]

So I will respond to you the same way I did KY.

I have great respect for the Grace of God but you seem to thing by putting Sovereign in front of Grace it somehow changes it. What I do not respect is the way some on here abuse scripture so as to make it fit their theology. Silly people, the bible is the standard not their philosophy.

People who reject God’s sovereignty in saving sinners typically offer their reasoning, “What security is there in thinking that your eternal destiny is not in your hands?” I counter with the precise opposite point. Given the Biblical revelation of what man typically does with holy things committed to him, what security do you have with the idea that your eternity depends on you? God committed the moral simplicity of one law to Adam and Eve in an ideal world, and they failed. God committed a comprehensive way of life, including His laws, to the nation of Israel, and they failed. What security do you have in thinking that you can, or will, do better than they?... Brother Glen

Btw... These are not my words of truth but from a PB Elder who has been preaching since that age of 14 ordained at the age 18 and has been preaching over 60 years... And an author of many books and articles... Silverhair weather you believe the way I do or not, you are a child of God... These are points to ponder!

 

[Silverhair]

You believe what you want from the Bible. Not going down your rabbit hole. Have the last word.

I am not the one that follows a philosophy that has pagan roots that Augustine brought into the church and Calvin and so on have carried forward. So you stick with your calvinism that you say you do not follow and I will stick with the bible.

But I note that you did not attempt to answer the post I made. Do you believe what those verses say or not?

 

[Silverhair]

People who reject God’s sovereignty in saving sinners typically offer their reasoning, “What security is there in thinking that your eternal destiny is not in your hands?” I counter with the precise opposite point. Given the Biblical revelation of what man typically does with holy things committed to him, what security do you have with the idea that your eternity depends on you? God committed the moral simplicity of one law to Adam and Eve in an ideal world, and they failed. God committed a comprehensive way of life, including His laws, to the nation of Israel, and they failed. What security do you have in thinking that you can, or will, do better than they?... Brother Glen

Btw... These are not my words of truth but from a PB Elder who has been preaching since that age of 14 ordained at the age 18 and has been preaching over 60 years... And an author of many books and articles... Silverhair weather you believe the way I do or not, you are a child of God... These are points to ponder!

So PB Elder wrote those words, ok but they are not scripture. I will continue to trust the bible not what some man tells me the bible says. And there is the difference between you and me.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yet another old and off the shelf chestnut from the library of Calvinist false claims.
The Son underwent the punishment sufficient to forgive the sin of anyone and everyone God chooses to forgive.
The washing of regeneration results in the individual being made blameless, perfect and righteous, all their sin, past, present and future are forgiven.
Since all those to be chosen, elected for salvation, have not yet been chosen, Christ did not die for the specific sins of anyone who obtained approval through faith after Christ died.
All humans are not free from the punishment due to their sin, because all humans have not received the reconciliation.

This is really quite a simple concept!

This promotes salvation by works, by what man does.

 

[kyredneck]

I am not the one that follows a philosophy

No, you're the one that rails against God:

Is there unrighteousness with God?

Why doth He still find fault?

 

[Silverhair]

No, you're the one that rails against God:

Is there unrighteousness with God?

Why doth He still find fault?

Is this true, and straight out of the Bible, or not?

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Why do so many deny clear scripture?

Rom 3:3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
Rom 3:4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."

All you have to do is say whether you believe what the bible says in these verses. It just requires a simple YES or NO response from you KY.

Why have you wandered off into the bushes and followed a man-made philosophy rather then the bible?

You do not have to believe what I say but you need to believe what the bible says.

 

[kyredneck]

Is this true, and straight out of the Bible, or not?

How many times has that gob of c & p 'proof passages' that you carry around in your shirt pocket been answered over the years? I'm not wasting my time, you're not going to change, neither am I.

Besides, all you do amounts to pitting scripture against scripture, with zero effort to harmonize. I gave you the harmony in my first post and you treated it with the utmost disrespect. You're no student, you're here to get your 'fix' for your 'addiction', bashing those awful horrible Calvinists.

 

[Silverhair]

How many times has that gob of c & p 'proof passages' that you carry around in your shirt pocket been answered over the years? I'm not wasting my time, you're not going to change, neither am I.

Besides, all you do amounts to pitting scripture against scripture, with zero effort to harmonize. I gave you the harmony in my first post and you treated it with the utmost disrespect. You're no student, you're here to get your 'fix' for your 'addiction', bashing those awful horrible Calvinists.

I answer your questions and you just continue to rail against scripture that I post and haul out the old "it has been answered before" trope. What you have called an answer is just your twisting of the text of scripture in an attempt to have it fit your theology. Still have not said if you believe the verses that I posted so I have to conclude that you do not as they would show the error of your theology.
I disagree with your philosophy and the bible shows that your philosophy is in error and you expect everyone to just believe your errant theology because you say they should. Your theology has been show to be based on pagan philosophy and you still hold to it so that says a great deal about your willingness to actually seek truth.

So what it comes down to is that you are unwilling to actually believe what the bible says.

FYI I do not have a problem with most calvinists, what I have a problem with is the pagan based philosophy that they try to push on people as if it were biblical truth.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

Is this true, and straight out of the Bible, or not?

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

They are true and all of them pertain to only Gods elect, whom Christ exclusively died for,.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

FYI I do not have a problem with most calvinists, what I have a problem with is the pagan based philosophy that they try to push on people as if it were biblical truth.

Then you have a problem with the Gospel of Gods Grace, for TULIP Truths are Gospel of Grace Truths.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



They are true and all of them pertain to only Gods elect, whom Christ exclusively died for,.

BF you continue to make the same error in logic that I and others have pointed out to you a number of times. You refuse to trust what the bible actually says and just twist the scriptures to fit your philosophy.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Then you have a problem with the Gospel of Gods Grace, for TULIP Truths are Gospel of Grace Truths.

Your TULIP / DoG are based on pagan philosophy which you would know if you actually wanted to know the truth. But you will just continue to beat the drum and not even ask where the drum came from and it is not from the bible.

 

[Van]

This promotes salvation by works, by what man does.

It seems the Cals copy and paste the same bogus claims over and over, as faith is according to grace not works. Who is it that rewrites saved through faith to mean saved then given faith? Why those same Cals who invent false charges to hide their false doctrines.