For Whom Did Christ Die?... By John Owen

[Van]

Children merely conceived have do to that a death do to a sin nature received. But not immediately do to their own sin.

Did I say children were condemned due to their sin? No, of course not. But once again disinformation is posted.
Here is what I actually said: "All humans are not free from the punishment due to their sin, because all humans have not received the reconciliation." Thus I said all humans are not free from the punishment due to their sin, not that all humans have sinned. Recall all humans have forfeited, as a consequence of Adam's sin, their fellowship with God unless they receive God's reconciliation through faith in the truth.

Ever wonder why nobody actually addresses the biblical doctrine? Go figure

 

[37818]

Did I say children were condemned due to their sin?

Who said you did?

 

[Van]

Who said you did?

Did I say children were condemned due to their sin? No, of course not. But once again disinformation is posted.
Here is what I actually said: "All humans are not free from the punishment due to their sin, because all humans have not received the reconciliation." Thus I said all humans are not free from the punishment due to their sin, not that all humans have sinned. Recall all humans have forfeited, as a consequence of Adam's sin, their fellowship with God unless they receive God's reconciliation through faith in the truth.

Ever wonder why nobody actually addresses the biblical doctrine? Go figure

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you continue to make the same error in logic that I and others have pointed out to you a number of times. You refuse to trust what the bible actually says and just twist the scriptures to fit your philosophy.

Christ only died for His Sheep Jn 10:11,15 the whole world of them.

 

[Brightfame52]

Your TULIP / DoG are based on pagan philosophy which you would know if you actually wanted to know the truth. But you will just continue to beat the drum and not even ask where the drum came from and it is not from the bible.

You are speaking evil of the Gospel friend and trying to justify it.

 

[Brightfame52]

It seems the Cals copy and paste the same bogus claims over and over, as faith is according to grace not works. Who is it that rewrites saved through faith to mean saved then given faith? Why those same Cals who invent false charges to hide their false doctrines.

If you condition salvation, any part of it, on something you do, its works, its a denial of the Person and Work of Christ. Even the Faith to believe on Christ is the fruit of His death.

 

[Silverhair]

Christ only died for His Sheep Jn 10:11,15 the whole world of them.

BF you are just trying to protect your errant philosophy. We have had these discussions before and you just continue to ignore scripture. So I will let you live in your delusion.

 

[Silverhair]

If you condition salvation, any part of it, on something you do, its works, its a denial of the Person and Work of Christ. Even the Faith to believe on Christ is the fruit of His death.

It is sad to see that it is not just you that has fallen for the pagan philosophy that Augustine brought into the church. If you and @tyndale1946 would take the time to actually check out the history you would know the truth. But since I have said this before I doubt that either one of you will do that.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you are just trying to protect your errant philosophy. We have had these discussions before and you just continue to ignore scripture. So I will let you live in your delusion.

Jesus is pretty clear and particular as to who He died for friend Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

And The Sheep here is synonymous with the Elect.

So when we see the words world or all in regards to Christs death, it simply means the world of His Sheep. The word world kosmos means also:

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

So the world of Jn 3:16 is the whole collection of His Sheep.

 

[Brightfame52]

It is sad to see that it is not just you that has fallen for the pagan philosophy that Augustine brought into the church. If you and @tyndale1946 would take the time to actually check out the history you would know the truth. But since I have said this before I doubt that either one of you will do that.

Remember, you heard it here, if you condition your salvation, any part of it on something you did, or didnt do, you fall into works, and deny the saving grace of God through Jesus Christ, who is to receive 100% credit for salvation !

 

[DaveXR650]

Remember, you heard it here, if you condition your salvation, any part of it on something you did, or didnt do, you fall into works

The problem is that the very person this thread is about warned constantly not to neglect or ignore the invitations of Christ to come to him. His sheep hear his voice and they follow him, which is a conscious rational act which is done by the sheep. We can look at our lives and see if that is true of ourselves. In fact, Owen believed that the only way to see if you are one of the elect is by seeing if you follow Christ. If you don't like that then don't use Owen or quote him. Better yet, read as much of him as you can. You will find a good balance and symmetry in how he explains the sovereignty of God along with the responsibility of men as rational creatures.

 

[Silverhair]

Jesus is pretty clear and particular as to who He died for friend Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

And The Sheep here is synonymous with the Elect.

So when we see the words world or all in regards to Christs death, it simply means the world of His Sheep. The word world kosmos means also:

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

So the world of Jn 3:16 is the whole collection of His Sheep.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

 

[Silverhair]

Remember, you heard it here, if you condition your salvation, any part of it on something you did, or didnt do, you fall into works, and deny the saving grace of God through Jesus Christ, who is to receive 100% credit for salvation !

Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

 

[Van]

If you condition salvation, any part of it, on something you do, its works, its a denial of the Person and Work of Christ. Even the Faith to believe on Christ is the fruit of His death.

You can proclaim fiction till the cows come home, but God says faith is in accord with grace. That means conditional election on the basis of God crediting an individuals faith as righteousness, is a salvation according to grace, not works. This is obvious!

Romans 4:16

 

[Silverhair]

You can proclaim fiction till the cows come home, but God says faith is in accord with grace. That means conditional election on the basis of God crediting an individuals faith as righteousness, is a salvation according to grace, not works. This is obvious!

Van you have to understand that @Brightfame52 has a very selective understanding of scripture. He only sees what he wants to see and will gladly change the meaning of any verse or word that does not fit his theology.

 

[Van]

Van you have to understand that @Brightfame52 has a very selective understanding of scripture. He only sees what he wants to see and will gladly change the meaning of any verse or word that does not fit his theology.

We all in our ignorance and pride sometimes erroneously oppose truth. But by the grace of God, through the revelation provided by His Word, we may stumble back on the path of righteousness. May God bless us all.

 

[Brightfame52]

The problem is that the very person this thread is about warned constantly not to neglect or ignore the invitations of Christ to come to him. His sheep hear his voice and they follow him, which is a conscious rational act which is done by the sheep. We can look at our lives and see if that is true of ourselves. In fact, Owen believed that the only way to see if you are one of the elect is by seeing if you follow Christ. If you don't like that then don't use Owen or quote him. Better yet, read as much of him as you can. You will find a good balance and symmetry in how he explains the sovereignty of God along with the responsibility of men as rational creatures.

What people dont understand is that the call/invite is only to and effectual for the Sheep Jn 10. Christs invitations are effectual producing, effecting the ones called to do just that, to follow Him, and they are already saved when they are called, because Christ has already taken away their sins, and Spirit has already quickened them.

 

[Brightfame52]

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Thats all the Sheep, that supports limited, particular atonement.

 

[Brightfame52]

You can proclaim fiction till the cows come home, but God says faith is in accord with grace. That means conditional election on the basis of God crediting an individuals faith as righteousness, is a salvation according to grace, not works. This is obvious!

Romans 4:16

If you condition salvation, any part of it, on something you do, its works, its a denial of the Person and Work of Christ. Even the Faith to believe on Christ is the fruit of His death.

 

[DaveXR650]

What people dont understand is that the call/invite is only to and effectual for the Sheep Jn 10. Christs invitations are effectual producing, effecting the ones called to do just that, to follow Him, and they are already saved when they are called, because Christ has already taken away their sins, and Spirit has already quickened them.

I don't have a problem with the idea like Owen believed, that God's salvation is comprehensive and completely effective for those who get saved. So to Owen, it made perfect sense that the ones effectively called and the ones who respond are the ones, and the only ones who Christ died for. Just understand that within that overall sovereignty of God, somehow are real invitations issued by the gospel and real decisions taken by men that have real consequences. Owen said this over and over.

Given the fact that the invitation is a reality, and the possibility of rejection is also a reality, I can see how people would say that the destiny of a person then is not set at the time of the crucifixion or at the earlier time when the atonement was planned. You've got two things going on that we as humans can't reconcile. Once God knows something He wants to do, or knows something He has determined to allow to happen - it will and must certainly happen. Yet, at the same time, until it happens, it actually has not happened - and you cannot make a statement that doesn't take that into account. To say that the elect are saved at the atonement will not work if you insist by that that it does not matter if the person comes to Christ by faith. If you do that you are going against all the Calvinist Puritans like Owen. It does not mean that you have to go so far the other way, where God is portrayed as somewhat anxious and maybe a little befuddled - waiting to see if anyone chooses to accept His "offer". And that would have offended Owen greatly.

If you are so much into God's sovereignty, that you deny man has any real responsibility, you are going against Owen. Which is fine as Owen was a man. But I wouldn't quote him without knowing the whole story of how he taught.