Forced to serve?

[saturneptune]

No one has a right to receive that service. Many churches all over the country use this policy. And if you do not want to pull duty then don't use the nursery.

That is so much baloney. No one said there was a right to use the nursery. You have no right to dictate a linkage between service of the parent and care of the child. I am shocked your local church puts up with that. The policy is ill conceived, divisive, and has no place in a Christian setting. On top of that, you have no right to dictate who is called to do what ministry. That is between them and the Lord.

 

[saturneptune]

Wrong. Completely wrong, Luke.

We don't NEED to know WHY. That is between them and God, it's not our job to judge or try to "force" people to do anything. It's the Holy Spirit's job to move and convict, not man's job. How dare any pastor set himself up as the Holy Spirit, telling people when and where and how they MUST serve! It's not our place to demand reasons and then judge whether those reasons are acceptable or not. Forcing people to serve in areas where they are not gifted/called or before they are spiritually ready can result in disaster. A TRUE man of God would approach the church member and gently ask him/her to pray and seek God's wisdom about where to serve. A TRUE man of God will preach the whole gospel (including the parts about spiritual gifts) and will trust the Holy Spirit to convict and move in hearts.

The Bible tells us to serve the Lord with GLADNESS. People who are forced to serve in a certain capacity will do so with resentment, and the children will pick up on it. I sure don't want my kids being taught by someone who isn't willing or ready yet to teach!

Exactly correct. Great wording. I say nothing ever surprises me anymore, such as a Pastor being in favor of the above postings concept, but this surprises me. How could someone called by the Lord and been to years of seminary come to such a conclusion?

 

[webdog]

Wrong. Completely wrong, Luke.

We don't NEED to know WHY. That is between them and God, it's not our job to judge or try to "force" people to do anything. It's the Holy Spirit's job to move and convict, not man's job. How dare any pastor set himself up as the Holy Spirit, telling people when and where and how they MUST serve! It's not our place to demand reasons and then judge whether those reasons are acceptable or not. Forcing people to serve in areas where they are not gifted/called or before they are spiritually ready can result in disaster. A TRUE man of God would approach the church member and gently ask him/her to pray and seek God's wisdom about where to serve. A TRUE man of God will preach the whole gospel (including the parts about spiritual gifts) and will trust the Holy Spirit to convict and move in hearts.

The Bible tells us to serve the Lord with GLADNESS. People who are forced to serve in a certain capacity will do so with resentment, and the children will pick up on it. I sure don't want my kids being taught by someone who isn't willing or ready yet to teach!

I disagree completely. There are times we need to serve in a capacity regardless of "calling" (I agree with Luke this is a common excuse to shirk serving). If someone doesn't like the policy they don't have to attend the church. If leaders waited for a "calling" to fill every need in the chuch the church would be in bad shape. This is the faulty mindset of a democratic congregational church.

 

[abcgrad94]

I disagree completely. There are times we need to serve in a capacity regardless of "calling" (I agree with Luke this is a common excuse to shirk serving). If someone doesn't like the policy they don't have to attend the church. If leaders waited for a "calling" to fill every need in the chuch the church would be in bad shape. This is the faulty mindset of a democratic congregational church.

I agree there are times when we need to jump in and fill a need when an emergency arises. When a teacher gets sick and needs a substitute or when the pianist breaks a wrist. . .I can understand being asked to help out in that case. Being forced to always serve in a certain area "or else" makes it a burden, not a joy. It sets the preacher up as dictator to tell people what they "must" do.

Some of the "needs" of the church, like nursery workers or Jr. Church teachers aren't true "needs," they are preferences. When our church didn't have enough Jr. Church workers, my dh decided to do away with Jr. Church rather than force people to teach. The kids now sit through morning worship and they've learned to be quiet and listen. The church didn't fall apart at the seams for lack of Jr. Church. If, in the future, someone feels convicted and wants to teach, we may have it again.

But. . .The church will not stop for lack of an usher or pianist or Sunday School teacher. They didn't even have those roles back in Christ's day.

 

[webdog]

I agree there are times when we need to jump in and fill a need when an emergency arises. When a teacher gets sick and needs a substitute or when the pianist breaks a wrist. . .I can understand being asked to help out in that case. Being forced to always serve in a certain area "or else" makes it a burden, not a joy. It sets the preacher up as dictator to tell people what they "must" do.

I agree a pastor should not be a dictator, but I need to see Scripture where we are only called to serve if an emergency arises. All belivers are called to be servants, and while we have different gifts that may or may not assist in a particular area, we are to serve based on where church leadership has determined a need is. Sheep don't tell shepherds where they want to go, nor do the determine the needs of the flock.

Some of the "needs" of the church, like nursery workers or Jr. Church teachers aren't true "needs," they are preferences. When our church didn't have enough Jr. Church workers, my dh decided to do away with Jr. Church rather than force people to teach. The kids now sit through morning worship and they've learned to be quiet and listen. The church didn't fall apart at the seams for lack of Jr. Church. If, in the future, someone feels convicted and wants to teach, we may have it again.

But. . .The church will not stop for lack of an usher or pianist or Sunday School teacher. They didn't even have those roles back in Christ's day.

this is a good example of what I mean. Leadership determined there wasn't a need and acted accordingly. The op was addressing a church where they determined if you have a child, you need to serve in such a capacity, and when you agree to be a part of the chuch you agree to be under their leadership. If those with kids don't feel "called" to serve kids when they HAVE kids, they need to do a heart check. Church isn't free daycare for 2 hours and it will not kill anyone for working with them 1 week a month.

The title of this thread is misleading as nobody puts a gun to your head and forces you to join a church.

 

[webdog]

That is so much baloney. No one said there was a right to use the nursery. You have no right to dictate a linkage between service of the parent and care of the child. I am shocked your local church puts up with that. The policy is ill conceived, divisive, and has no place in a Christian setting. On top of that, you have no right to dictate who is called to do what ministry. That is between them and the Lord.

Completely out of line. With the autonomy of the church and their leadership, what right and authority do you make the above statements? If HIS church determines such a need, who are we to say otherwise? If the church has a policy that if you have children you need to serve in that area, so be it. If they don't like it, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

[saturneptune]

Completely out of line. With the autonomy of the church and their leadership, what right and authority do you make the above statements? If HIS church determines such a need, who are we to say otherwise? If the church has a policy that if you have children you need to serve in that area, so be it. If they don't like it, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

The whole idea is outrageous. Each person can join a church as they feel lead, but I would never belong to a church that subscribed to such nonsense.

 

[Jerome]

"Now, Martha would have Mary made to serve Christ. What right has she to be sitting down there? Whether she likes it or not, she must get up and wait like her sister. Martha’s voluntary desire to do much leads her to think that Mary, if she has not quite such a voluntary love for the work, must be driven to it—must have a sharp word from Christ about it. So it is with us. We are so willing to contribute to the Lord’s work that we wish we had ten thousand times as much to give. Our heart is warm within us, and we feel we would make no reserve—and then are so grieved with others because they give so very little that we wish we could compel them to give!
And so we would put their cankered money into the same treasury with the bright freewill offerings of the saints, as if the Lord would receive such beggarly pittances squeezed out by force in the same manner as He accepts the voluntary gifts of His people! It were wiser if we left those unwilling contributions to rust in the pockets of their owners. For in the long run I believe they do not help the cause—only that which is given out of a generous spirit, and out of love to Christ—will come up accepted before Him. Too readily do we get away from the free spirit when we get away from the right spirit. The fact is, the Martha spirit spoils all, because it gets us away from the inner soul of service, as I have said before, to the mere husks of service." —Charles Spurgeon, "Martha and Mary"

 

[Oldtimer]

Wrong. Completely wrong, Luke.

We don't NEED to know WHY. That is between them and God, it's not our job to judge or try to "force" people to do anything. It's the Holy Spirit's job to move and convict, not man's job. How dare any pastor set himself up as the Holy Spirit, telling people when and where and how they MUST serve! It's not our place to demand reasons and then judge whether those reasons are acceptable or not. Forcing people to serve in areas where they are not gifted/called or before they are spiritually ready can result in disaster. A TRUE man of God would approach the church member and gently ask him/her to pray and seek God's wisdom about where to serve. A TRUE man of God will preach the whole gospel (including the parts about spiritual gifts) and will trust the Holy Spirit to convict and move in hearts.

The Bible tells us to serve the Lord with GLADNESS. People who are forced to serve in a certain capacity will do so with resentment, and the children will pick up on it. I sure don't want my kids being taught by someone who isn't willing or ready yet to teach!

Just like God doesn't NEED our money, God doesn't NEED our service. God accepts our offerings of time and money when GLADLY and freely given from our hearts.

If a church decided that members must give x dollars per week to worship, would that be acceptable? If a church decided that the only ones who could eat at a fellowship meal are those who wash dishes afterwards, would that be acceptable? Or, only those who vacuum/mop the area can sit in the pews?

Being an oldtimer, I grew up in a church without "modern conveniences" of a nursery and Children's Church during worship services. Except for Sunday School classes for those old enough to attend, children stayed with their parents.

If there are not enough volunteers, who freely give of either/or their time and money for a particular church activity/ministry, then it should be discontinued. Is there anything in the scriptures that specifices that a nursery and a special children's service be included as a part of worship of our Lord?

or their children will not be able to attend.

Matthew 19: KJB
13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[saturneptune]

Just like God doesn't NEED our money, God doesn't NEED our service. God accepts our offerings of time and money when GLADLY and freely given from our hearts.

If a church decided that members must give x dollars per week to worship, would that be acceptable? If a church decided that the only ones who could eat at a fellowship meal are those who wash dishes afterwards, would that be acceptable? Or, only those who vacuum/mop the area can sit in the pews?

Being an oldtimer, I grew up in a church without "modern conveniences" of a nursery and Children's Church during worship services. Except for Sunday School classes for those old enough to attend, children stayed with their parents.

If there are not enough volunteers, who freely give of either/or their time and money for a particular church activity/ministry, then it should be discontinued. Is there anything in the scriptures that specifices that a nursery and a special children's service be included as a part of worship of our Lord?



Matthew 19: KJB
13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Thank you for the sanity.

 

[webdog]

Thank you for the sanity.

More like insanity as his examples are completely unrelated to the topic and mere strawmen.

 

[webdog]

The whole idea is outrageous. Each person can join a church as they feel lead, but I would never belong to a church that subscribed to such nonsense.

What is "outrageous" and "nonsense"? Falling under church authority? The modest requirements to parents in th op? Churches being autonomous? This mystical "calling" to serve on top of the biblical one given to ALL belivers?

 

[abcgrad94]

I just had a thought. Perhaps the church in the OP has been taken advantage of in the past, and has established some rigid rules to eliminate that?

For example, in several churches we've attended, there were some freeloaders who made sure to come to every dinner, eat like pigs, take home leftovers and unopened bottles of pop, yet they didn't contribute, or they contributed VERY little food. I know of one family of 8 (4 of which were hungry teenagers) who routinely bring a plate of cookies and then do the "all you can eat" in order to "save on their food bill." (Yes, exact words said when asked to bring more food.)

The church ladies got ticked and started passing around sign-up sheets, specifying that everyone needed to bring enough food to serve a certain number of people. They didn't say you couldn't come if you didn't bring a dish, but they strongly encouraged people to bring enough to feed their own families.

It may be that people in the OP's church have experienced something like this in the children's departments, so they went overboard to correct it. That doesn't mean I agree with it, but I can see that being a reason why a church might do this.

 

[saturneptune]

What is "outrageous" and "nonsense"? Falling under church authority? The modest requirements to parents in th op? Churches being autonomous? This mystical "calling" to serve on top of the biblical one given to ALL belivers?

I know of no church having such a policy, and there are many, many Baptist churches in the area. I gave you the example of the Wednesday night ministry. Who are you to require anyone into a specific ministry? I have never refused a ministry, but that is me. A local New Testement church is not a dictatorship. There are many dictatorships around the world that claim authority.

 

[webdog]

Just like God doesn't NEED our money, God doesn't NEED our service. God accepts our offerings of time and money when GLADLY and freely given from our hearts.

...except He commands us to be servants. This is NOT optional. Of course He needs nothing, but that is neither here nor there.

If a church decided that members must give x dollars per week to worship, would that be acceptable?

non sequitur as it is not related to a command.

If a church decided that the only ones who could eat at a fellowship meal are those who wash dishes afterwards, would that be acceptable?

Plain silly. Next...

Or, only those who vacuum/mop the area can sit in the pews?

See previous reply

Being an oldtimer, I grew up in a church without "modern conveniences" of a nursery and Children's Church during worship services. Except for Sunday School classes for those old enough to attend, children stayed with their parents.

...and this is relevant...how?

If there are not enough volunteers, who freely give of either/or their time and money for a particular church activity/ministry, then it should be discontinued. Is there anything in the scriptures that specifices that a nursery and a special children's service be included as a part of worship of our Lord?

so the sheep dictate the course of the flock, not the shepherd. Also, since buildings to meet in are not in the Bible, we don't have to pay property taxes if we don't feel "called".

Matthew 19: KJB
13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

I hardly believe any godly, healthy church would prevent a child from attending regardless of the selfishness of the parents. Pure hyperbole.

 

[abcgrad94]

I know of no church having such a policy, and there are many, many Baptist churches in the area.

I've attended churches that REQUIRE parents to take turns in the nursery if they have a child in the nursery. With my oldest child, it wasn't a problem. With my second, it was, because my dh was a youth pastor and I was expected to be with him and the teens for all services except Sunday night. There were many weeks I didn't get fed spiritually because of this silly rule, as my turn in the nursery had to be Sunday night. Oh, and try doing nursery while you have a 4 or 5 year old who is "too old" for nursery, but you have to work nursery while your dh is on the platform helping with the service. I will not attend a church like that again.

 

[webdog]

I've attended churches that REQUIRE parents to take turns in the nursery if they have a child in the nursery. With my oldest child, it wasn't a problem. With my second, it was, because my dh was a youth pastor and I was expected to be with him and the teens for all services except Sunday night. There were many weeks I didn't get fed spiritually because of this silly rule, as my turn in the nursery had to be Sunday night. Oh, and try doing nursery while you have a 4 or 5 year old who is "too old" for nursery, but you have to work nursery while your dh is on the platform helping with the service. I will not attend a church like that again.

How would you not "get fed" by taking a one week turn in the nursery? That seems to be quite the exageration.

Thank God for churches that require participation like this. If only those who "feel called" (whatever that means) worked with the children, they wouldn't be "fed" 46 out of 52 weeks.

 

[abcgrad94]

How would you not "get fed" by taking a one week turn in the nursery? That seems to be quite the exageration.

Because for Sunday school, Jr. Church, and Wednesday nights, I was working with the kids as co-youth leader. The pastor still expected me to "take my turn" in the nursery. I also had to work as substitute if a nursery worker didn't come. So, there were many times I was in the nursery Sunday nights and teaching the youth for the rest of the weekly services.

 

[Oldtimer]

More like insanity as his examples are completely unrelated to the topic and mere strawmen.

Can't decide between :sleep: and :laugh: so I' use both. :type:

Typical reply of name calling when all else fails.

Each of the examples is that someone must give something to the "church" in order to participate in worship of our Lord according to what's being offered by that church. BTW, when I help clean the church facilities, that includes cleaning and sanitizing the nursery. If I had a baby, would that be enough sacrifice on my part to satisify those who require some form of payment?

Uhmmmmm......

This reminds me of a question that I have. Are there churches that REQUIRE children to be put into a nursery or attend Children's Church, if the parents want to attend the Sunday morning worship service?

At our church, parents have the choice of where their children stay during services. Members also have a choice as to which ministries, if any, in which they participate. Everyone is encouraged to volunteer to serve our Lord. And, many do. However, there are no LAW(s) established to "punish" those who don't FREELY and GLADLY give of themselves.

Edit: Just saw your detailed reply to my post. (sigh).........

...except He commands us to be servants. This is NOT optional. Of course He needs nothing, but that is neither here nor there.

Does God grant other men the authority to demand what works that we shall do in our service to Him?

The only person in my life who as that authority is the Holy Spirit.

 

[jbh28]

Terrible idea. First with the specific example. Does the pastor fall under this same mandate? Doe she step down from the pulpit every once in a while to work in the children's ministry instead of preaching? Why force parents of children to serve in one specific ministry in the church if they are already in one. My wife and I are both heavenly involved in the music ministry of our church.

Second, why force someone to serve? If they don't want to serve, then so be it. Should their children be in the childrens program? why not. Are we not all supposed to be serving(worshiping) God and all that we do in church be unto the Lord? You can't force someone to worship. Do you really want people ministering to your children that don't want to be there anyway? I wouldn't.