Foreknew Israel Salvation Gentile

[Brother Bob]

30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Do you notice that these are all in the past tense? peace

1: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2: God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4: But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.


5: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded


I see it as Israel (remnant) being those He foreknew and the rest is by election and that election comes by faith (believing that Jesus is the Christ).

By Grace through faith, peace

 

[canadyjd]

30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Do you notice that these are all in the past tense? peace

Yes, I did. The question is to whom is "whom" referring to in v.30? You are saying it is Old Testament Israel. But...Paul doesn't start addressing Israel until Chapter 9. The context demands someone else.

The "whom" of chp.8 v. 30 is "those who are called according to His purpose" in v.28;

and they are the same as the "saints" for whom Holy Spirit; "intercedes for the saints according to the will of God". in v.27

and the "us" of v.26.

and "God's elect" of v. 33.

Do you see that Paul says that God "foreknew" current believers (saints, us, God's elect) in chapter 8, and then makes a direct comparison to the Old Testament remnant that God "foreknew" in chapter 11?

peace to youraise:

 

[Brother Bob]

I printed out both and am really going to compare them then I get back with you. peace

 

[LeBuick]

Thanks, my question is why did he not call them he was with the foreknown but plainly seperated them and said "in whom ye also trusted etc." Why were they not foreknown, can you speculate for me?

I'm not an absolute believer of predestination in the calvinist sense. He did call them, but many didn't hearken to the call. How do you see a man heal the sick, raise the dead and still not believe?

Read what happen after Jesus raised Lazarus;

45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

I believe the Jews knew who he was but just as Jesus would not put new wine in an old wineskin, he was not going to give the Church to the old leaders. When I read versus 51 and 52 I believe Caiaphas, the high priest knew who Jesus was. What are your thoughts?

 

[canadyjd]

I printed out both and am really going to compare them then I get back with you. peace

You are a gentleman and a scholar.

peace to youraise: :sleeping_2:

 

[LeBuick]

7: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

I think this is the key right here, Israel, meaning the nation did not obtained but the elect or the chosen few did. The rest were blind.

 

[LeBuick]

I printed out both and am really going to compare them then I get back with you. peace

What did you print? I want to see?

 

[Brother Bob]

Romans 8:1-6
Romans 11: 27-34

I want to put them side by side and compare them. If you notice when Paul speaks of us he calls us the "election". When he speaks of the remnant of Israel he calls them "foreknew". Now I am getting in my mind two different responses to the calling. One he foreknew and the other was elected and both are the "elect" lady which is the church. I don't believe we have been glorified outwardly.
thoughts?

 

[Brother Bob]

Moderators: I tried to remove the bold type but it wouldn't go away. Sorry.

Bro. Canady and Bro LeBuick;

I truly studied Romans 8 and 11 and cannot agree with the Calvinist veiw. It would go against everything Jesus taught for He taught Salvation to one and all that would believe in Him and repent. It also says only those the Father "draws" can come unto Him. It don't say "those who the Father pushed". But being drawn Jesus said If I be lifted up I will draw all men. Peaceraying:
raying:
Romans, chapter 8
20: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we
(Meaning those who were in the beginning of the church being set up under the Grace)
ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26: Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1.The Bible speaks of God being glorified and also Jesus being glorified but not we.
2. Foreknow simply means to be fore ordained or to know before they were predestined to be confomed to the image of his son.
3. Firstborn among many brethren. He never was born into the church . Jesus didn’t have to become a part of the church, He is the rock of which the church is built upon. He did have to become the firstfruits of them that slept and "firstborn" also means firstfruits. Jesus is the First resurrection and many of the bodies of the Saints that slept arose with Him. Now they were glorified.
All of this speaks in the past tense and not the present.

Romans, chapter 11
1: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2: God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith
(He is plainly saying and talking about Israel and Israel alone being the "foreknew".)
of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4: But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8: (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9: And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
11: I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12: Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
13: For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15: For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16: For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17: And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18: Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19: Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23: And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24: For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
(He is saying that the Gentiles could lose being "grafted in" and therefore could not be predestinated to be saved before the foundation of the world or they could not be lost.)

To accept the Calvinist belief then I would have to ignore all of the following Scriptures I think.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.:Fish:

 

[Brother Bob]

To not hold to the "free choice veiw given to mankind by a Sovereign God" of the Scriptures then:

1.Love cannot mean Love for what kind of love is it that would create people just to send them to hell. It is said those who go to hell have no one to blame but themselves and that is true if they had a right to choose but if they were created where they had no choice then is that a fair and just God? I think not. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and harden whom I will harden. I believe that to be to whomever you choose. "Choose ye this day whom ye shall serve".

2. All cannot mean all. The limited atonement veiws are continously changing the meaning of all to fit their beliefs.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

3. Whole cannot mean whole. It is said that the whole could not reach back to those under the law but I understand that the blood did reach back to those who died with faith under the law. Also the Law says where there is no law sin is not imputed.

4. Any cannot mean any. For "I stand at the door and knock and if any man will hear my voice, I will come in and sup with him and he with me".

5. Whosoever cannot men whosoever.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. If it does not mean what it says then God has either told false (which He cannot do) or we as feeble humans do not understand the Scriptures or try to put our own spin on it.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.


6. Who believeth cannot not mean who believeth:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. It would make no difference what you believed if you were pre-chosen for Heaven or Hell.

7. If "God so loved the whole World" only means those born after Christ then why are not all saved after Christ. Were there no "chosen" before Christ or did it begin with Christ.
Why does the Bible say that the "elect" is Israel and if God hath cast away the "elect" then Apostle Paul would of been cast away also. Whey is the "election" different than the "elect". Why was Paul always talking to two groups of people in Romans if it was not those who were under the law and those who were under Grace.

8. Lastly, to believe as the so-called Arminimens you don't have to change any words in the Scriptures but to hold to limited atonement veiw you have to always be on guard to what is being said so you can give a different meaning to some of the words. It must be hard instead of being able to just quote the Bible you have to spend most of your time explain that "all does not mean all" etc.

9. If it were not for the books of Romans and Eph then there would be no disagreement at all for all the rest of the Bible is free atonement to all that would believe. Peace:thumbs:

 

[GraceAlone]

canadyjd, Your postings on this topic show a real understanding of the spirit and letter of the passages in question. Congratulations, flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you. IMHO:thumbs:

 

[canadyjd]

canadyjd, Your postings on this topic show a real understanding of the spirit and letter of the passages in question. Congratulations, flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you. IMHO:thumbs:

Thank you for your kind words

peace to youraise:

 

[psalms109:31]

I understand brother Bob

You cannot make understand those who rejected the milk and try to understand the meat without maturing from the precious milk that brought us life. We are to go unto maturity, but not by rejecting the milk!!!

There is two groups.

You have Israel the elect who have those who have those who have been cut out for unbelief.

Then you have the Gentiles who were included with the believing elect(Jews) when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed.

Our dependence will be has been and now is on Jesus Christ, not on election. The very elect will be cut out for unbelief.

We are not to be arrogant but afraid, if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either.

 

[canadyjd]

Bbob

What happened? We were doing so well addressing the text of Romans.

Please answer this one question. Are you rejecting the message of Rom. 8 & 11, concerning God's elect being comprised of both current believers and the remnant of Israel both of which He 'foreknew', because that would force you to reconsider what you already believe about free choice?

peace to youraise:

 

[Brother Bob]

canadyjd;
I would never reject any of the Scriptures. I just get a different understanding of them than you do.

I printed out and spent a couple days studying Romans 8 and 11 and did not see them as you do. It is not a put down of you at all. It is how I understand the Scriptures to mean. The Gentiles were "aliens" how could they be the "elect" by being pre-chosen. They had to become the "elect" (which is a way of saying the Church) by Grace through faith. Through their belief they heard the word of truth, the gospel of their Salvation and after they had "believed" then and only then, not before the world began but then were they sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.
canadyjd; you can't just turn on me because I don't accept your belief. I am not turning on you. If I was a Calvinist you all would accept me with open arms but because I don't believe in "limited atonement" then I am the enemy. That is not the Christian way. We must talk to each other on equal basis and respect or all we do if fight and frankly I am tired of that. I do not respect someone who talks down to others which you are not one of them but some are. I suspect the greatest majority on here believe as I do but will not join these C/A discussions because of the fighting and I don't blame them. The Calvinist on the other hand bunch together to protect one another but that don't make them right. I gave your veiw a honest study with as open a mind as I could and realized how you all could believe as you do but you have to restrict yourselves to Romans and Eph and subject the rest of the Bible to change so it fits in. Well, "all" Scriptures were given for our learning. Once again, I am not attacking you personally. peaceraise:

 

[canadyjd]

You cannot make understand those who rejected the milk and try to understand the meat without maturing from the precious milk that brought us life. We are to go unto maturity, but not by rejecting the milk!!!

There is two groups.

There is one group (God's chosen/God's elect) that include both the remnant of Israel and current believers; milk not withstanding.

peace to youraise:

 

[webdog]

The Gentiles were "aliens" how could they be the "elect" by being pre-chosen. They had to become the "elect" (which is a way of saying the Church) by Grace through faith.

:thumbsup:

 

[canadyjd]

Bbob

I don't consider you an enemy at all and welcome you with open arms as a fellow brother in Christ. I expect to learn from you (as a matter of fact, I think I have already commended you on another thread for opening up the meaning to me of some verse of scripture concerning the first ressurection). It is my hope that you might be able to learn from me as well; that is that we may both open each other's eyes at times along the way.

I do not view every thing through the lens of the Calvinism debate. I usually don't want the discussion to go in that direction because we both know where that will end.

That is why I was glad to address specific scriptures with you (Roms.8 & 11) so that we could come to an understanding of what God has revealed to us. That is also why I was disappointed when you returned to the C/A debate, and posted all the passages you believe support your position on "free-will" or "free-choice".

Be that as it will, I appreciate the civil tone; it looks good on you.

peace to youraise:

 

[psalms109:31]

elect

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

The Jews is and always be the elect of God.

God cut jews out not because they were not chosen but because of unbelief.

God included with the believing Jews(elect) those who heard and believed(gentiles).

Your insurance is Jesus Christ, not election.

Romans 11:21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

I understand why Paul seen the church still needing milk

You are right webdog, it is the church

 

[Brother Bob]

canadyjd;
It looks good on both of us. We were doing fine before before others joined in for the purpose of sowing discord. I would hope we could continue.

I did not mean to bring in the C/A debate but our differences are just that and don't really know how we can avoid the obvious. When I brought in "free choice" it is what I believe to counter what you stated on Romans. I still believe Paul is talking about two groups, but of course becoming one when the wall was broken down. One were the "elect" by predestination and the other group is us and we became the elect by "Grace through faith". Jesus broke down the middle wall where we are no longer two, but Paul was referring to them back then before Christ came and us after Christ came.