Foreknew Israel Salvation Gentile

[canadyjd]

I understand why Paul seen the church still needing milk

Be careful, you are going to knock someone out with that log that is sticking out of your eye.:smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraise:

 

[canadyjd]

canadyjd;
I did not mean to bring in the C/A debate but our differences are just that and don't really know how we can avoid the obvious. When I brought in "free choice" it is what I believe to counter what you stated on Romans. I still Paul is talking about two groups but of course becoming one but the one were the "elect" by predestination and the other group is us and we became the elect by "Grace through faith". Jesus broke down the middle wall where we are no longer two but Paul was referring to them back then before Christ came and us after Christ came.

You are correct....it does look good on both of us.:thumbs:

I understand your point about the text, and it is a good one. I will mediate upon it.

Isn't it a problem to break "the elect" into two different groups: Jews by predestination and Gentiles by "Grace through faith", when it is clear the first Christians were Jews that were saved by "Grace through faith"?

Doesn't Paul make the point in many places that Faith is what saves, regardless of heritage?

peace to youraise:

 

[Brother Bob]

Not when you realize the "elect" just means "the Church" The Lady. I mean we began the NT by "He came to His own".

 

[canadyjd]

Not when you realize the "elect" just means "the Church" The Lady. I mean we began the NT by "He came to His own".

I am not understanding the reference to John, or how "elect" being the "church" would change the understanding in Roms.

peace to youraise:

 

[canadyjd]

I will have to continue this later. I appreciate the discussion, Bbob

peace to youraise:

 

[Brother Bob]

Reference to John is "He came to His own, those who were His chosen people, the Elect".
By realizing the "elect" is the Church the "elect lady" we know that He broke down the middle wall of partition so the Gentiles could have a chance to become a part of the "elect lady" the Church but by Grace through faith.

 

[psalms109:31]

Church

Be careful, you are going to knock someone out with that log that is sticking out of your eye.:smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraise:

I'm part of the church, and my dependance is not on election that I can be cut out for unbelief, but in Jesus.

It is the church that has been predestined to salvation, not individuals in it.

Jesus is the head and we are many members. We are one and every member is important.

Anything that does not abide in Jesus will be cut out and thrown into the fire.

We are saved by grace, because our debt is death, and we didn't pay it.

 

[pinoybaptist]

The Gentiles were "aliens" how could they be the "elect" by being pre-chosen.

And that first part of your statement is true, because that is what the Bible says.
However, here is the entire verse:

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Things we need to recall as we study is that the Bible itself tells us how to rightly divide the word of truth, and that is by comparing Scripture with Scripture, spiritual with spiritual, here a little, there a little.

Paul himself says in the latter part of this very same letter, in Chapter 3, verses 1 and 2, the following: " What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."

God chose to reveal Himself to Abraham, then created the nation of Israel from Abraham's loins, and thru Moses, which is descended from Abraham, He further revealed Himself as Jehovah, and gave to this nation, this commonwealth, exclusively to this commonwealth, His word, His laws, His statutes, thereby making this nation a standout among the other nations surrounding them.

In the midst of their tribulations and persecutions by their enemies, they alone have a God they can truly hope and trust to, and many times this God have shown to this nation His faithfulness.

And the Romans, the Ephesians, the Corinthians, the Colossians, the strangers scattered abroad, Cornelius the Centurion, the Greeks, the Egyptians, all Gentiles, were not part of this glorious history.

They did not have a God they could really put their trust to, in this world.

Before they believed in the one true God, before they turned from idols to the living God, they were part of whatever religious systems they had.

However, again, the earthly circumstances of God's people does not negate God's election of them, and should emphasize to us why a command was given to preach the gospel: not to save the listeners' and elects' souls, but to bring them to knowledge of the Savior and of the hope they have in Him.

There is absolutely no conflict there, Brother Bob.

Those scriptures about Gentiles being aliens do not in anyway disprove their being elect prior to their knowledge of the Scriptures and understanding of their hope.

peace.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Not when you realize the "elect" just means "the Church" The Lady. I mean we began the NT by "He came to His own".

I respectfully disagree, Brother Bob.
His own here does not refer to His creation, nor to His elect, but to the people He created, in the flesh, from the loins of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and to whom, as Jehovah God, he delivered the covenants, the oracles, and laws.
He came to this nation he chose above all nations in the world, and through whom He came as the promised Messiah of those who are truly His own from eternity past.

 

[Brother Bob]

1: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2: God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

I respectfully disagree, Brother Bob.
His own here does not refer to His creation, nor to His elect, but to the people He created, in the flesh, from the loins of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and to whom, as Jehovah God, he delivered the covenants, the oracles, and laws.
He came to this nation he chose above all nations in the world, and through whom He came as the promised Messiah of those who are truly His own from eternity past.

It is plain that Israel is His chosen people and when He came He said go ye not the way of the Gentile but rather go ye to the lost sheep of the house of Isreal.

Those scriptures about Gentiles being aliens do not in anyway disprove their being elect prior to their knowledge of the Scriptures and understanding of their hope.

Gentiles had no God and could not of been a part of the elect (chosen before the foundation of the world). If you are saying they were chosen and predestinated before they were saved then I can accept that but it was after they "believed" then were they chosen. peace raise:

 

[npetreley]

It is plain that Israel is His chosen people and when He came He said go ye not the way of the Gentile but rather go ye to the lost sheep of the house of Isreal.

Gentiles had no God and could not of been a part of the elect (chosen before the foundation of the world). If you are saying they were chosen and predestinated before they were saved then I can accept that but it was after they "believed" then were they chosen. peace raise:

The elect Gentiles were chosen before the creation of the world. I could quote passages that imply as much, but why not just quote the OT on the subject? Romans 9:25, speaking of the Gentiles, refers to this passage:

Hosea 2:23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth,
And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy;
Then I will say to those who were not My people,
‘ You are My people!’
And they shall say, ‘You are my God!’”

5 Thus says God the LORD,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
6 “ I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;
I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles,
7 To open blind eyes,
To bring out prisoners from the prison,
Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.

There's a lot more where those came from, but I don't think we need any more.

God works out His plan His own way. He chose Israel for a purpose, and at the time He confined His search to "the lost sheep of Israel", that was for a purpose, too. But it is obvious God had plans for the Gentiles all along. In fact, I think it's pretty obvious that Israel had to reject Jesus as part of God's plan for the Gentiles, as well as for the Jews. So it was a necessary part of that plan to go only to the lost sheep of Israel at first. You may not agree, but the OT makes it clear that there is/was a remnant of Gentiles who were elect all along, just as there is/was a remnant of Jews who are/were elect for salvation all along.

 

[Brother Bob]

npet; Thanks for posting,

Hosea 2:23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth,
And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy;
Then I will say to those who were not My people,
‘ You are My people!’
And they shall say, ‘You are my God!’”


Quote:
5 Thus says God the LORD,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
6 “ I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;
I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles,
7 To open blind eyes,
To bring out prisoners from the prison,
Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.

You will need more to convince me this only talk about it will happen not that it happened before the foundation of the world.

(The following is the Remnant of Israel and it was by "elect".
Romans: 9:27
27: Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

(The following is the Remnant of the Gentiles and it was by Grace.)
Romans:11:5
5: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Of course that was through belief in Christ. They didn't have "no God" none of them had a God and were Aliens to the Commonwealth of Isreal and they didn't even have a HOPE. peace :thumbs:

 

[Blammo]

There's a lot more where those came from, but I don't think we need any more.

Sorry, maybe I'm stupid, but, I do need more. I don't see anything in the verses you posted that speaks of "elect individuals". Either you Calvinists are able to read between the lines, or you are reading God's mind, because I just don't see what you are seeing.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Gentiles had no God and could not of been a part of the elect (chosen before the foundation of the world).

Well, now, Rachel, who gave birth to some of Israel's forefathers, was a Gentile. Did she know the living God then ? Strange that God would choose one who grew up worshipping idols as mother of the fathers of His people, right ?

And Laban went to shear his sheep: and Rachel had stolen the images that were her father's.

And then there's Abraham himself. A Gentile. Not only elect unto salvation, but chosen to be Israel's Patriarch.

If you are saying they were chosen and predestinated before they were saved then I can accept that but it was after they "believed" then were they chosen. peace

Then you just added a requirement to grace, and to Christ's finished work, BB. Explain to us how those who are absolutely unable to exercise belief are eternally saved, please.

Do their inability to belief hinder the efficacy of Christ's blood for them ?
Do their inability to believe because of their circumstances damn them to hell ?
And please, do not tell us that God finds a way for them.
There is only one way: Christ's work.
Is Christ's work secondary only to their ability to believe ?

 

[Brother Bob]

Then you just added a requirement to grace, and to Christ's finished work, BB. Explain to us how those who are absolutely unable to exercise belief are eternally saved, please.

Who would that be? I am afraid I do not understand your question?

Well, now, Rachel, who gave birth to some of Israel's forefathers, was a Gentile. Did she know the living God then ? Strange that God would choose one who grew up worshipping idols as mother of the fathers of His people, right ?

There were others that accepted Israel's God and through Israel were saved.

And then there's Abraham himself. A Gentile. Not only elect unto salvation, but chosen to be Israel's Patriarch.

Abraham was the Father and also Israel's God was His God. The father of Israel was Gentile? Never looked at it that way at all. You know never read of any "elect" before Israel. They were saved by faith alone I think. Sure must not of been pre-chosen?

These have nothing to do whatsoever with the coming in of the Gentiles who were without God, had no hope in the world and were aliens to the commonwealth of Israel.

Please lets keep this civil. peace

 

[Jarthur001]

I have not read the whole tread..just the last few post. This post by me maybe way off, but it looks like you are looking for choosen gentiles of the OT. If so...I'll add a few.

Nebuchadnezzar..non-Jew..clearly choosen by God, much the same way Paul was choosen...hit over the head.

Seth..non jew..clearly choosen.

Many Ninevites were choosen..God choose to send and tell.....non jews

There was Melchizedek in Genesis 14..non jew
Some hold this is Christ..most do not. If you think this is Christ you can skip this one.

In the line of the promise you find Rahab and Ruth and Tamar all choosen...all non Jews.
Gomer? Was she a jew? Not sure about that one.

anyway...there were some..if not many others

 

[Brother Bob]

So we meet again James;
The question was that in Romans 8 and 11 Paul talked of two groups of people and those who God "foreknew" according to Paul was Israel and if Israel had of been cast off it would of included him also.
Now the number you gave were ones appointed of God for a special purpose and were not Israel so then not the "elect" that Paul spoke of. The Children of God even though a "remnant" still were a number that no man could number so the few you named would hardly have much bearing on the statement of Paul that Israel were the "elect"

Also, the aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, without God, having no hope in the world was one of the groups Paul was addressing which according to Pauls own words he did not include them with the "elect" but they were "election by Grace" which was no doubt through faith.

I see no way these people could of been pre chosen before the foundation of the world.

Revelation, chapter 7
"9": After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Romans, chapter 11
1": I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

"2": God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Eph:2:12
"11": Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

"12": That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Being that you are here you stated on another thread that these were what a Calvinist believed:
God is
God made man
God gave man a choice
Man choose his will over Gods will
Man falls in sin
God Promised to save man from sin.
Christ came as the light.
Christ is the Promised one
Christ died for our sins
A man believes Christ blood can save Him from his sins
This man is saved

I suspect you would have to add "but" to most of these to be Calvinists doctrine.

Again I say, that so-called-freewills do not have to put different meanings to the words in the Scriptures but the Calvinist do in order to fit the pre chosen doctrine.

Whosoever
All
Any
Whole
He that believeth
Everyone that believeth

To name a few.

 

[J.D.]

So we meet again James

Wyatt Erp and Jesse James squaring off here?

 

[canadyjd]

I'm part of the church, and my dependance is not on election that I can be cut out for unbelief, but in Jesus.

It is the church that has been predestined to salvation, not individuals in it.

Jesus is the head and we are many members. We are one and every member is important.

Anything that does not abide in Jesus will be cut out and thrown into the fire.

We are saved by grace, because our debt is death, and we didn't pay it.

I am sure you are much more spiritually mature than I am; and you certainly must have Holy Spirit unlocking the mysteries of scripture above and beyond what I could only dream about;

however, it is clear to me that log in your eye is still a problem.:tongue3:

peace to youraise:

 

[pinoybaptist]

BB, you said:

Who would that be? I am afraid I do not understand your question?

Okay. Let's begin with babies. Those who are born prematurely and die before being able to believe. Those who are aborted, who are not able to grow up and get the chance to be in the presence of a preacher, and believe. And then, you have the idiots and morons. How are they going to believe and be saved ? Or are they condemned to hell because they are unable to comprehend, and therefore, believe ?

There were others that accepted Israel's God and through Israel were saved.

Now I'm confused. In another post or thread you said salvation was by grace through faith, and in other threads where you post, you seem to be saying that salvation is thru Christ alone, but now it is by accepting Israel's God and being saved through Israel ? Again, I beg that these questions be answered:
Is God the God of the whole earth or not ? Is the whole earth accountable to God or not ? Do you believe that God started electing only when He created Israel, or did He have people whose names He knew and wrote in a book from before the foundation of the world ?
If God is the God of the whole earth, and He saved only those that believe, and that believing depends on their hearing the gospel, then, where is mercy for those before the gospel and for those who do not have opportunity to hear the gospel ?

The father of Israel was Gentile? Never looked at it that way at all.

Abraham was uncircumcised when God called him. The Bible says that much, and you know where to look, BB. Jacob was circumcised by Abraham, and therefore was, physically, a Jew, because Circumcision in Bible times were practiced only by Jews, if I understand correctly, and Paul hints as much, and again you know where to look.

Please lets keep this civil. peace

Have I been uncivil anywhere in this thread, BB ? Maybe to some in other threads, and only if provoked, but I have always been civil to you, bro.
If I had shown anything you construe as being not civil, then forgive me, I did not mean to.