Foreknowledge, Foreknown, Predestined

He's quoting Eph 2:5 not v. 8, so RB is correct in his quoting.

 

Which proves Dr Roger's point. You may have received and lost your regeneration numerous times before you had faith.

And of course Eph 2:5 supports both of us. We were "dead" when we were revived. It could be no other way. However, that does NOT preclude our believing, repenting, and receiving before being regenerated. Those acts do NOT regenerate us -- God does.

Let me know exactly why you are saying we cannot believe, repent, and receive prior to regeneration, pls.

skypair

 

I know that , but it is verse 8 that explains verse 5. You can not seperate them.

Paul expounds on what what he means :

This is about salvation NOT regeneration. If you just take vs 5 and run with it then yes, I see the arguement but verse 6 brings the light which reveals an improper assumption.

If it is speaking of regeneration and not of salvation then before we are ever saved, we have ALREADY be made to sit together with Christ in heavenly places.
So there is no need for salvation since my position is ALREADY established. This is why verse 7 says this SALVATION (not regeneration) shows froth His richs and glory, ext... for the ages to come. Verse 8 goes on to explain HOW salvation comes By Grace and that is by 'Faith".

(now if you hold that regeneration IS salvation but not yet yeilded to faith, then you have another biblical problem which states salvation is BY Faith and not that salvation is confirmed through faith)

 

RB is more than capable of giving his own rebutall, but I'll venture this:

1. There's no one text that gives us a complete view of ordo salutis, so we must take several texts into consideration before make a proper conclusion.

2. For example, Eph. 2:8 is a more condensed for of Rom 8:29-30 and so on.

3. As someone who adheres to the doctrines of grace, I do believe regeneration precedes faith and oftentimes, and the mention of just one of the links in the chaing of ordo salutis assumes the others.

4. For example, Paul is fond of using "calling" or "called," which points to the whole salvation reality and experience.

5. So when Paul mentions "made alive with Christ" and so on, Paul has the whole ordo salutis in mind.

 

And I will grant you that, so there is no real but an 'assumed' order. So why be absolutely dogmatic regarding it?

But that was my point, which you illistrated well with Paul. Yet we also must 'assume' Paul is speaking of the whole order of Salvation, or maybe Paul is speaking of the completeness OF salvation without regard to an order but finished work (thus verses 6, 7, and 10). Yes, it 'can' regard both the beginning AND the End or just the finished product regardless of the 'beginning'.
I will though go along the whole concept of salvation just for agurments sakes but remind you that it has to do with Salvation and NOT regeneration "before" faith since it speaks of the salvation establishing us IN Christ.

 

You can't use THOSE words. That is almost word for word my line I use in debating. :laugh:
* with the exception of unregenerate of course *

 

1. Well, if we didn't have other texts to consider, I think you'll agree that we'll be lost at sea.

2. How can one who is "dead in sins" (v.1) come to faith in Christ? V. 4 answers the question.

3. But what does it mean for a person "dead in sin" to be made alive in Christ? What is involved?

 

That should put things into perspective, I hope. :thumbs:

 

He is the best Calvinist-non Calvinist on the bb. :laugh:

 

Hey! I used to have that title. I guess I've been replaced. :tear:

 

You can't be replaced Amy, I was just allowed to enter into your presense for a short time. :laugh:

 

Thanks Allan. You're alright! :wavey:

 

Does this mean your almost not. :laugh: (j/k)

I'm sorry but you have used this term 'Evangelical' on me before and since it is used in both good and bad cases (according to the person using it), please explain YOUR meaning of its usage

I have no problem contending for the fact that God must exert His influence upon the minds and hearts of men, for without it NO MAN can nor will come to Christ in his depraved state.

I agree that God excerting His influence upon man will certainly lead to those whom He foreknew (or if you like elected) will be His own.

But what about those that Paul speaks to stating "Harden not your hearts". How can Paul knowing the certainty of Gods influence imply that we can harden anything against the thing we can not resist? And yet Paul make that statement very plain as a plea not to be like the Jews did under Moses leadership.

Or where Paul states "I beseech thee, be ye reconciled" Why plead for 'them' to be reconciled with God if they are already reconciled with Him? And other states which 'seem' to show not to show your contention of Grace being 'irresistable'.

IMO - I believe it is a certainty that God will bring unto Himself by His means those whom He foreknew but and yet by the sames means and with the same intent extends his offer to others who will not come to God (thus the universal usage of whosoever, if any man thirst, ext..), whom He also foreknew would not be His as they will reject His truth which you also agree they 'willing' do.

Which is why I state it is not Doctrine which are at issue but the mechanics of those Doctrines to which we both adhere.

 

RB, what do mean by the boldened part?

God offers salvation universally to "all" but will not draw "all" in order that they might be saved?

Why offer salvation to someone who you never intend on giving it to?

.

 

Then this might confuse you even more. Christ is the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. Why would God give Adam and Eve a choice if He knew they would disobey Him?

 

Some would say because God wanted His children to love Him freely, which means there must be a choice between Him and something or someone else.

 

The only way His children (the elect) can love Him is through the miracle of regeneration. We are regenerated, born again, by His will not our own. That is true freedom.
Those who are not the elect hate God. See John 8. They are actually children of the devil.
The realization of the sovereign grace of God truly sets you free Amy.