Foreknowledge, Foreknown, Predestined

[reformedbeliever]

As I have stated numerous times here on the BB...those are only assumptions. It cannot be proven that there will be people who will never hear. We can philosphically come to that conclusion, but it cannot be stated as a given. I believe Scripture when It states Christ is the Light that lights all men.

And your statement has fallen on its ear many times too. You just fail to see that... because it does major damage to your system of belief.

 

[webdog]

I see....... so an Almighty God .... or as you put it... Christ...... simply needs our help.

First off, can we keep this to one reply? You have replied three times to one post, and I'm getting a little cross eyed

Second, I never stated Christ needs my help, or your help, or anyones help. If anything, your argument leads to that conclusion, as it makes man responsible for "lighting all men" instead of The Light.

And your statement has fallen on its ear many times too. You just fail to see that... because it does major damage to your system of belief.

I disagree. The proof lies on the one who states that there are some men who die without ever hearing the Gospel, especially when Scripture state otherwise.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Who are we to question why God commanded us to preach the Gospel?

I will not hold "testimony" of these survivors over Scripture. There is no way these survivors could know the minds of those who died. This is not proof. This would be like saying I have proof you have never seen the grand canyon because one of your family members told me so.

No, but the dead person's spouse who knows them better than you certainly can know whether or not they had heard.

 

[webdog]

No, but the dead person's spouse who knows them better than you certainly can know whether or not they had heard.

How?!? How can anyone know every shred of light that somebody else has received? Impossible.

Here are three verses that Pastor Bob posted on the other thread...

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 

[reformedbeliever]

First off, can we keep this to one reply? You have replied three times to one post, and I'm getting a little cross eyed

Second, I never stated Christ needs my help, or your help, or anyones help. If anything, your argument leads to that conclusion, as it makes man responsible for "lighting all men" instead of The Light.

I disagree. The proof lies on the one who states that there are some men who die without ever hearing the Gospel, especially when Scripture state otherwise.

The GC in no way makes man responsible for "lighting all men" .......lol.

My argument leads to the conclusion that not all have heard of the Christ. Why not start one of your polls Web? Lets see how many on this board thinks all men have heard of the Christ.

 

[reformedbeliever]

How?!? How can anyone know every shred of light that somebody else has received? Impossible.

Here are three verses that Pastor Bob posted on the other thread...

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Then he is either using poor exegesis or there is no need for the GC. We have been over the use of "all" ... "whole world"...... etc... too many times.

 

[webdog]

The GC in no way makes man responsible for "lighting all men" .......lol.

My argument leads to the conclusion that not all have heard of the Christ. Why not start one of your polls Web? Lets see how many on this board thinks all men have heard of the Christ.

I find your position strange in that God is responsible for everything in regards to salvation...from regeneration, to the gift of "saving faith" (irresistable grace) to the perseverance of the saints...but this hinges solely on man and his ability to spread the Gospel?!? This would make man sovereign over the entire act of salvation, if it was dependant on man to be the sole means God has and will use to spread the Gospel! We see many occasions in the OT of God appearing to mankind in dreams. How was Saul of Tarsus saved? Was it by man...or direct revelation from Christ?
I would be careful in holding to the notion that salvation hinges on man to get "the light" to all men instead of what Scripture so plainly states...the Christ is the Light that lights all men.

 

[reformedbeliever]

How?!? How can anyone know every shred of light that somebody else has received? Impossible.

Here are three verses that Pastor Bob posted on the other thread...

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

You are really reaching on this one Web. It doesn't surprise me however. What lengths one will go to preserve their sysyem of belief.

The good thing is that we both believe in the grace of God through faith in Christ. Its the mechanics of it where we disagree. Even though i'm reformed... i'll contend with God for the souls of men. God bless you brother.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I find your position strange in that God is responsible for everything in regards to salvation...from regeneration, to the gift of "saving faith" (irresistable grace) to the perseverance of the saints...but this hinges solely on man and his ability to spread the Gospel?!? This would make man sovereign over the entire act of salvation, if it was dependant on man to be the sole means God has and will use to spread the Gospel! We see many occasions in the OT of God appearing to mankind in dreams. How was Saul of Tarsus saved? Was it by man...or direct revelation from Christ?
I would be careful in holding to the notion that salvation hinges on man to get "the light" to all men instead of what Scripture so plainly states...the Christ is the Light that lights all men.

I don't doubt the direct revelation of God at all! What I doubt is that all men have heard of the Christ... due to the testimony of their survivors. When Paul was converted.... did people know about it?

Of course I would like to leave some reason of a possibility that a deceased person may be saved. It would be good to maybe give a glimmer of hope to the deceased person's family. I think the clear teaching of the Bible is that not all hear. I will not judge a person's salvation.... but we are given indications as to whether a person is lost or not. Again... you are really reaching on this one Web.

 

[webdog]

You are really reaching on this one Web. It doesn't surprise me however. What lengths one will go to preserve their sysyem of belief.

I think in light of the Scripture given...the same could be said of your view.

Of course I would like to leave some reason of a possibility that a deceased person may be saved. It would be good to maybe give a glimmer of hope to the deceased person's family. I think the clear teaching of the Bible is that not all hear. I will not judge a person's salvation.... but we are given indications as to whether a person is lost or not. Again... you are really reaching on this one Web.

I think I will let Scripture show the above bolded to be incorrect. Romans 1, Titus 2, Isaiah 52 and John 1 clearly show who is doing the "reaching"

 

[webdog]

You are really reaching on this one Web. It doesn't surprise me however. What lengths one will go to preserve their sysyem of belief.

I think in light of the Scripture given...the same could be said of your view.

Of course I would like to leave some reason of a possibility that a deceased person may be saved. It would be good to maybe give a glimmer of hope to the deceased person's family. I think the clear teaching of the Bible is that not all hear. I will not judge a person's salvation.... but we are given indications as to whether a person is lost or not. Again... you are really reaching on this one Web.

I think I will let Scripture show the above bolded to be incorrect. Romans 1, Titus 2, Isaiah 52 and John 1 clearly show who is doing the "reaching"

 

[skypair]

1. Skypair, I thought you wanted to debated your original post on Sproul's erroneous statement about the Holy Spirit.

2. What you are concerned about, is not my concern about "mysteries."

3. I thought you were saying that Sproul wasn't sure about the deity of the Spirit, and I have quoted from Sproul to disprove that.

4. I'm interested in the Person of the Spirit and since Sproul didn't teach heresy about the Spirit's true nature, there's no point in me continuing in this discussion about the Spirit.

TC -- I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I only posted my comments because I expect those of Sproul's caliber to know these things especially if they think regeneration comes first in the operation of salvation. In fact, him not knowing the Spirit thoroughly discredits the entire theology of Calvinism, him being an expert "Presby Reformer."

My point with you was that if you knew the Holy Spirit as I do, you might see how errant Calvinism is or at least fill in one of the unity gaps that plagues our divergent theologies. Sorry that latter not on your "agenda."

skypair

 

[rjprince]

Good morning brother. Please re-read what I wrote. I'm not talking about a universal salvation... but a universal revelation of Christ. The point I was making is that not all peoples are given the revelation of Christ..... the many tribes of people who will never hear about Christ et. We would probably be surprised at how many people in the USA have never heard.

I certainly agree that many people will die never having heard the name of Jesus. I do not agree that this is proof of their never having been drawn to God to at least SOME degree. God draws all men through His creation to some degree. I am not sure that we could limit the truth of Rom 1 either before or after the cross. I think the glory of His creation reveals Him in all ages.

I understand that your argument is that "not all men are drawn to Christ because not all men have heard of Christ". I do not see that actually hearing His name is required to be drawn by Him to the degree that men are able to consciously reject what light they do have.

I am not sure how to understand what difference His being lifted up makes in this equation. I am not willing to say that men were not drawn to Him before He was lifted up. Not, am I willing to say that since some have not heard of Him, only some are drawn to Him. God has always drawn His chosen effectually, but He has also revealed Himself to all men through creation.

I do see the tension here between both truths, similar to the tension involved between the truth that I made a conscious decision to trust Christ for my salvation and that I was chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

Not being able to reconcile seemingly opposing truths does not mean that both cannot be Biblical. We certainly must do our best to understand the apparent paradoxes of Scripture, but we MUST accept them at face value whether we understand them, or not.

 

[skypair]

1. Skypair, you have attributed a statement to Sproul that is nowhere to be found in Sproul's book.

2. You said you are reading the book, yet you wished to misrepresent Sproul in such and egregious fashion. Come on, Skypair! Tell me, What are you up to?

I told you that the "dog ate my post" (or the cable company anyway). :laugh:

NO aggregious misquoting. Being a little more confident today and you not having found it, here is where I found his claim to ignorance and "mystery." (P57) "In its simplest form, mystery points to something we do not understand. The fact that something is mysterious does not mean that it is not true. It is possible that with further information we will understand it, but for the present it eludes us."

As I said, the only true mysteries given in the Bible are ones that the NT saint is given to know -- "hidden wisdom of God." Anyone indwelt by the Holy Spirit, then -- able to "see" and "enter" the kingdom of God -- should be capable of grasping them. The only one I can think of associated with the Holy Spirit is "God in us" which we UNDERSTAND as God's indwelling us with His Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is NOT a mystery. But we being created in God's image can easily imagine what God's spirit is by knowing our spirit. Or we can fabricate one to suit our own theology, right?

skypair

 

[Rippon]

RJP : You said : "God has always drawn His chosen effectually , but He has also revealed Himself to all men through creation ." That's fine . I would agree with that . But don't forget they all people have the testimony of the Law written in their hearts as well .

Yet God's natural revelation of Himself and the Law written in their hearts is not to be confused with drawing . Drawing is always to completion . It always savingly unites one to the Lord . There is no partial drawing . The Lord does not "draw to some degree" as you said .

And , further , I do not take Scripture "at face value" . I do not advise anyone to take that approach with the Word of God . Go deeper and compare Scripture with Scripture . Do not pit one verse against another . God does not contradict Himself .

 

[skypair]

I see....... so an Almighty God .... or as you put it... Christ...... simply needs our help.

UH, yes. What would your answer be? How else did God preserve the word before Moses but through human transimission? Who wrote down the NT gospels and epistles? Who shared Christ with you?

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

I certainly agree that many people will die never having heard the name of Jesus. I do not agree that this is proof of their never having been drawn to God to at least SOME degree. God draws all men through His creation to some degree. I am not sure that we could limit the truth of Rom 1 either before or after the cross. I think the glory of His creation reveals Him in all ages.

I understand that your argument is that "not all men are drawn to Christ because not all men have heard of Christ". I do not see that actually hearing His name is required to be drawn by Him to the degree that men are able to consciously reject what light they do have.

I am not sure how to understand what difference His being lifted up makes in this equation. I am not willing to say that men were not drawn to Him before He was lifted up. Not, am I willing to say that since some have not heard of Him, only some are drawn to Him. God has always drawn His chosen effectually, but He has also revealed Himself to all men through creation.

I do see the tension here between both truths, similar to the tension involved between the truth that I made a conscious decision to trust Christ for my salvation and that I was chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

Not being able to reconcile seemingly opposing truths does not mean that both cannot be Biblical. We certainly must do our best to understand the apparent paradoxes of Scripture, but we MUST accept them at face value whether we understand them, or not.

I never denied His natural revelation through conscience etc.... I never deny His supernatural revelation... such as Paul's experience ..... As a matter of fact, I believe that all Christians are born again by a supernatural act of God the Holy Spirit. Not of their will but God's.
His revelation of Himself and His drawing is two different things. Thank you Rippon for the explanation.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

UH, yes. What would your answer be? How else did God preserve the word before Moses but through human transimission? Who wrote down the NT gospels and epistles? Who shared Christ with you?

skypair

And people wonder (or balk) when a Calvinist see this kind of idea as semi-pelagianism.

 

[reformedbeliever]

UH, yes. What would your answer be? How else did God preserve the word before Moses but through human transimission? Who wrote down the NT gospels and epistles? Who shared Christ with you?

skypair

He doesn't NEED our help. He is pleased to use us as tools to accomplish His purposes. That is our privilege and responsibility. Do you think God could not have preserved His Word without us? You have a low view of God.

 

[skypair]

Drawing is always to completion . It always savingly unites one to the Lord . There is no partial drawing . The Lord does not "draw to some degree" as you said .

That, sir, is ERROR!

"Drawing" leads to "coming" but NOT irrevokably. Many will come only to "belief in vain" (1Cor 15:2) and to "them that draw back unto perdition" (Heb 10:39)

You are totally out of line with your remarks, sir!

skypair