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Foreknowledge, Foreknown, Predestined
- Thread starter ReformedBaptist
- Start date
skypair said:
This is what I have found in Sproul's book The Mystery of the Holy Spirit:
1. "We see then that when the Christian church confesses its faith in a triune God, it intends to convey the idea that there is one essence or being, not three, but that there are three distinctive subsisting personalities in the Godhead" (pp. 72, 73).
2. "In the work of redemption, as the Son is subordinate to the Father, so the Holy Spirit is subordinate to both the Father and the Son.
"To be subordinate in the work of redemption, however, does not mean to be inferior. The Son and the Holy Spirit are equal with the Father and with each other in being, glory, dignity, power, and worth" (p.74, emphasis mine).
3. On what page in Ch.4 did you get your quote from? Were they Sproul's actual words or from a secondary source?
Well, I just lost my post and my connection. I'm not going to commit the same time to this copying of it.TCGreek said:
P57 "MYSTERY"
Read where Sproul admits he the mystery of the Spirit eludes him but that doesn't mean it is not true.
P59 "ESSENCE AND PERSON"
Read where we get these notions from Greek philosophy.
P60 "PROLOGUE TO JOHN'S GOSPEL"
Read his knowledge of Greek derivatives.
Why not this ---- WE have an "essence"/being called our spirit.
It is both unity with our body and soul and yet divisible from them -- "personable."
Sproul admits this all is a mystery to him. And the only 'mysteries' in the Bible are ones that NT believers are supposed to understand. And the only one I can think of associated with the Holy Spirit is the "mystery, God in us" --- the indwelling. God's Spirit supplanting our spirit in us.
Let's just say that Sproul and Calvin are inadequate to the task that the Bible is able to render to those who come "in the Spirit."
skypair
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skypair said:
1. Skypair, I thought you wanted to debated your original post on Sproul's erroneous statement about the Holy Spirit.
2. What you are concerned about, is not my concern about "mysteries."
3. I thought you were saying that Sproul wasn't sure about the deity of the Spirit, and I have quoted from Sproul to disprove that.
4. I'm interested in the Person of the Spirit and since Sproul didn't teach heresy about the Spirit's true nature, there's no point in me continuing in this discussion about the Spirit.
saturneptune
New Member
You two deserve each other.TCGreek said:
psalms109:31
Active Member
reformedbeliever said:
I also pray for those who God has given to Jesus, the meek and the humble who trust in the name of the Lord. That they will not be decieved by mens understanding and walk away from the truth
James 5:
The Prayer of Faith
13Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
17Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops. 19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
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(1) God judges us by our works:
(2) God is not the author of sin:
(3) God is a Righteous Judge (Ps 7:11a)
(4) (i) If you are judged, you sinned.
(ii) If you sinned, you were tempted.
(iii) If you were tempted, you were not tempted by YHWH-God.
(5) (i) When Adam & Eve were tempted by the snake in Eden, they were not tempted by YHWH-God.
(ii) YHWH-God did not cause the Fall of Man
(6) (i) When Jesus was tempted by the devil in the Wilderness, he was not tempted by YHWH-God.
(ii) When Jesus — unlike Adam & Eve — successfully resisted the Devil, he did so under the power of the Holy Spirt (which procedes from YHWH-God the Father, 1 Pet 1:12, Nicene Creed):
(7) (i) [Based only on these two examples, Adam & Jesus:] Only those animated by the power of the Holy Spirit, proceding from YHWH-God, can resist the Devil
(ii) To wit, only God can resist the Devil
(iii) Natural Man, who "receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God" (1 Cor 2:14), can never resist the Devil
(iv) Natural Man, failing to resist the Devil, sins
(v) Sin leads to death (James 1:15; Romans 5:12, 6:23, 8:13, etc.)
(vi) Apart from God, and His Holy Spirit, all are doomed to death (Cf. Romans 8:7-8; Eph 2:1)
(8) (i) [OTOH:] James tells us, "Draw nigh unto God, and He will draw nigh unto you" (James 4:8)
(ii) Paul tells us, speaking of the Messiah, "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God" (Hebrews 7:19).
(iii) Thus, we "draw nigh unto God" through the Messiah (cf. John 14:6)
(iv) Jesus says, "No man can come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day" (John 6:44 — this Greek word for "draw" is not the same as used by James and Paul).
CONCLUSION: It seems that it is only by God's Holy Spirit, which proceedeth from Him to us, according to His Grace and "good pleasure" (Cf. Luke 12:32; Eph 1:5-9; Phl 2:13, 2 Th 1:11), that any man hath any hope at all
HOWEVER: Jesus says, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me" (John 12:32 this Greek word for "draw" is the same as used in John 6:44).
THUS: YHWH-God, according to His Will, is drawing all men to Him through His firstborn son, Jesus Christ.
Thus, by God's Grace, all you need to do is "repent and Believe the Gospel" (Mark 1:15)
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom (Luke 12:32).
1 Peter 1:17
And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile,
And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile,
(2) God is not the author of sin:
James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
(3) God is a Righteous Judge (Ps 7:11a)
(4) (i) If you are judged, you sinned.
(ii) If you sinned, you were tempted.
(iii) If you were tempted, you were not tempted by YHWH-God.
(5) (i) When Adam & Eve were tempted by the snake in Eden, they were not tempted by YHWH-God.
(ii) YHWH-God did not cause the Fall of Man
(6) (i) When Jesus was tempted by the devil in the Wilderness, he was not tempted by YHWH-God.
(ii) When Jesus — unlike Adam & Eve — successfully resisted the Devil, he did so under the power of the Holy Spirt (which procedes from YHWH-God the Father, 1 Pet 1:12, Nicene Creed):
Matthew 4:1
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
(7) (i) [Based only on these two examples, Adam & Jesus:] Only those animated by the power of the Holy Spirit, proceding from YHWH-God, can resist the Devil
(ii) To wit, only God can resist the Devil
(iii) Natural Man, who "receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God" (1 Cor 2:14), can never resist the Devil
(iv) Natural Man, failing to resist the Devil, sins
(v) Sin leads to death (James 1:15; Romans 5:12, 6:23, 8:13, etc.)
(vi) Apart from God, and His Holy Spirit, all are doomed to death (Cf. Romans 8:7-8; Eph 2:1)
(8) (i) [OTOH:] James tells us, "Draw nigh unto God, and He will draw nigh unto you" (James 4:8)
(ii) Paul tells us, speaking of the Messiah, "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God" (Hebrews 7:19).
(iii) Thus, we "draw nigh unto God" through the Messiah (cf. John 14:6)
(iv) Jesus says, "No man can come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day" (John 6:44 — this Greek word for "draw" is not the same as used by James and Paul).
CONCLUSION: It seems that it is only by God's Holy Spirit, which proceedeth from Him to us, according to His Grace and "good pleasure" (Cf. Luke 12:32; Eph 1:5-9; Phl 2:13, 2 Th 1:11), that any man hath any hope at all
HOWEVER: Jesus says, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me" (John 12:32 this Greek word for "draw" is the same as used in John 6:44).
BY CONTRAST, the minion$ of Mammon only draw you to judgement (James 2:6, Acts 16:19, 21:30)
THUS: YHWH-God, according to His Will, is drawing all men to Him through His firstborn son, Jesus Christ.
Thus, by God's Grace, all you need to do is "repent and Believe the Gospel" (Mark 1:15)
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom (Luke 12:32).
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:laugh: I couldn't just leave without one more glib reminder of the annoyance that I am :laugh:reformedbeliever said:
Simple my friend, context as will be noted below.
No my brother not a double standard just a difference in context regarding the content. Jesus prayed for those who ARE His (His disciples) verses 1-19 in contrast to the world who hate both Christ and them. Yet it is only when you get to verse 20 and onward does Christ bring the rest of the believers into his prayer.
His prayer in the first part is specific to the His current believers but when He states "I pray not for these alone but for them which shall believe" it sets the first part of the prayer in general (Knowing the Father and Christ, Unity with God and each other) to all those who will come after. Yet it is interesting the purpose for Christ praying for those who beleive the Disciples (other believers)
Christ did not come to World first but to the Jews and after His death and Resurrection His 'coming' is THEN extended to the World. His prayer is in context for His present disciples who have beleived which the world (those who have not beleived - which includes the Jews now) hates, that God would keep them through their persecutions and trials to come. The term World (all sinful man) is used in conjunction with the term 'MAY' which establishes a potential. Not that the WHOLE WORLD will believe and be saved but that some out of 'the World' (thus the usage of 'may') will beleive because of them and be saved. Because it is those out of the world whom God calls is it not?
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
No, the context of 1 Tim can not be interpreted as "all of a part of the whole"
It would make absolutely no sense to switch back and forth using the same word but two distinct definition which must be established by the contents context.
Paul does not tell believers to pray for a part of the whole but for 'all men'.
So it is was for 'all men' why set add to it 'King and all that are in authority' in the next verse? Because Paul was not wanting them to neglect praying for them, due to the fact the vast majority of those in power Hated them with a passion and persecuted them even unto death. But Paul also uses the term 'all' regarding those in authority - is this speaking of types and kings of those in authority but not all who are in authority? That would distort the context which Paul is establishing for the rest of his discussion which he sets forth using those 'alls' there-in.
Let us not forget that 1 Tim 6 is not speaking about the to the same thing 1 Tim 2 is, their context is different as is the content of that being discussed.
It appears to me that 'Grace' is not irresistable.
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reformedbeliever said:Hello rj. May I voice my humble opinion?If Christ is saying that He will draw all men (as in every individual rather than all races of men) then that would point to a universal revelation of Christ. We know that Christ has not been revealed to all men. Ask those on the mission field. They will testify that there are many tribes of men who have never heard of Christ. They will testify that their deceased family members have never heard of Christ. I don't think due to that, that we can use this "all men" as a universal meaning. I think it would be all races of men. There you have it. My Humble Opinion brother. What do you think?
Sorry so long to reply. No I do not think that a universal drawing is a universal salvation. There is no indication that this drawing in effectual. It may simply refer to the universal knowledge that all have by virtue of the general testimony of creation. This understanding fits my position and is consistent with the text. Will probably make some comments on the "drawing" thread.
reformedbeliever
New Member
Allan said:
You still miss the point brother. Christ is not praying for the world.... as in all individuals.... but only for those who will believe.
RB and TCGreek and myself agree that the context of the Tim. verses fit perfectly. Greek and Jew are in the context (whole world).
The context can only be fit to your system of belief. Of course you will say the same about my system... so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
We both thank God for His grace. Have a great day brother. Hope you get some rest.
reformedbeliever
New Member
rjprince said:
Good morning brother. Please re-read what I wrote. I'm not talking about a universal salvation... but a universal revelation of Christ. The point I was making is that not all peoples are given the revelation of Christ..... the many tribes of people who will never hear about Christ et. We would probably be surprised at how many people in the USA have never heard.
As I have stated numerous times here on the BB...those are only assumptions. It cannot be proven that there will be people who will never hear. We can philosphically come to that conclusion, but it cannot be stated as a given. I believe Scripture when It states Christ is the Light that lights all men.reformedbeliever said:
reformedbeliever
New Member
webdog said:
Why don't we just do away with missions then?
reformedbeliever
New Member
webdog said:
Why did Christ give us the GC? Maybe there is something wrong in the way you exegete that scripture?
reformedbeliever
New Member
webdog said:
It has been proven that there are many who never heard before they died. Refute the testimony of their survivors.
Why would we? God has commanded us to preach the Gospel to all men. It is kind of presumptious to think that this responsibility falls completely on mankind, isn't it? Especially in light of Revelation 14:6 that shows an angel also proclaiming the Gospel?reformedbeliever said:
reformedbeliever
New Member
webdog said:
I see....... so an Almighty God .... or as you put it... Christ...... simply needs our help.
Who are we to question why God commanded us to preach the Gospel?
I will not hold "testimony" of these survivors over Scripture. There is no way these survivors could know the minds of those who died. This is not proof. This would be like saying I have proof you have never seen the grand canyon because one of your family members told me so.