Forensic Justification of sinners!

[Yeshua1]

I do not hold to Covenant Theology. While I believe God has revealed himself in various ways at various times, I believe that God's work in creation and in redemption is one continual act. The Law was a fuller revelation than what had been. But God's fullest revelation of Himself is in his Son Jesus Christ.

Man's righteousness is faith. It always has been. Abraham showed this as he was willing to sacrifice Isaac, with the faith that God indeed is faithful to his own promises. More importantly, Jesus fulfilled this through his faithful obedience even unto death. Our righteousness is faith in Christ. It is dying to the flesh, with the faith and hope in Christ, looking to the resurrection.

Righteousness results in law-keeping. Obedience is the fruit not the Vine.

Jesus still had to physically die as our sin bearer, and take te wrath of God for the sin debt...

 

[Yeshua1]

In Philippians Paul tells us that Jesus humbled himself and became obedient to God to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

The difference between you and is that you believe that Jesus humbled himself and became obedient to the Law. I believe that Jesus humbled himself in obedience to the Father with the obvious result of fulfilling the Law.

His obedience was shown by Him keeping the Law of God... Again, someone hd to have perfect rightiouness to enable us to be saved, and its either Jesus or us!

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe that Jesus came to fulfill the law.

Our faith produces good works (works of the Spirit). Our object is not works but Christ. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to be enslaved by the law. He humbled himself and became obedient to God the Father. This is faith in God, obedience to God, even unto death, the death of the cross. And this fulfills the Law ( not just the moral Parts, the whole thing ).

In other words, to love God with all of our heart, all of our mind, and all of our strength fulfills the Law. Obedience is descriptive of this love. The Son loved the Father. The Son emptied himself in submission to the Father (faith) and became obedient (a result of that faith).

But you are not talking about Jesus fulfilling the Law. For that the Law would have to point to Christ. You are talking about Jesus submitting not to the Father completely (thereby fulfilling the Law) but to moral compliance with Torah to be transferred to man. Again, this is the tail wagging the dog.

Keeping the Law id FA more than what you described, as this would mean that Jesus kept the mind and body always completely in the will of God!

 

[JonC]

No! When I speak of God's law I am referring to an all inclusive whatsoever he has revealed as His will because the issue is NEVER specific application but the issue is always one and the same thing - Submission (Rom. 8:7) or rebellion whether it is Gen. 2:17, whether it is Romans 2:14-15 law of conscience or whether it is Mosaic law. It is always the very same MORAL ISSUE - His way or your way and that is why Romans 3:9-20 defines sin broader than you do and defines law broader than you do as all inclusive of "all the world" "every mouth" so that "no flesh" is excluded.

Your definition is restricted to Moses. The law of Moses was to demonstrate that Gods people TYPIFIED by Israel cannot meet ANY COVENANT OBLIGATION because of their heart condition (Deut. 5:29; 29:4) but only the Triune God can meet those obligations (Ezek. 36:26-27) as typified in the sacrifices and temple administrations.

Let me repeat for emphasis, Mosaic Law was a COVENANT TYPE (moses a type of Christ, Israel a type of the elect, Tabernacle/temple type of the everlasting covenant, wherein no fallen human being is a participant or can meet any obligation but the participants are the Divine Trinity and the total obligations and fulfillment is wholly by God. The Mosaic covenant was designed to prove NO FALLEN HUMAN BEING can meet ANY OBLIGATIONS demanded by the everlasting Covenant.

Every single covenant God has made with man is a TYPE of the everlasting covenant, either in one of two respects. (1) God's unconditional covenant provisions; (2) Fallen mans inability to fulfill ANY covenant obligation.

Every single covenant entered into by fallen man, fallen man has ALWAYS failed to meet his covenant obligations. That is why the "everlasting" covenant of redemption has no fallen man as a participant but is restricted to the Three Divine Persons and their unfailing covenant obligations to save the elect.

Then our disagreement is more of definition than substance. You have been saying that the issue is submission or rebellion against the law but I have been taking your meaning to be the Mosaic Law. I have been saying that it is not a moral issue based on the Law (thinking Mosaic Law) but an issue of covenant obedience (meaning obedient submission or willful rebellion against God's will).

Unless you are saying that Jesus came to obey the Ten Commandments so that God could attribute that to us then I believe we agree for the most part. I believe that Jesus submitting to God's will (entirely) not only fulfilled the Mosaic Law but also also God's law (moral, covenant, all revelation and will of God) as a whole.

 

[Yeshua1]

Then our disagreement is more of definition than substance. You have been saying that the issue is submission or rebellion against the law but I have been taking your meaning to be the Mosaic Law. I have been saying that it is not a moral issue based on the Law (thinking Mosaic Law) but an issue of covenant obedience (meaning obedient submission or willful rebellion against God's will).

Unless you are saying that Jesus came to obey the Ten Commandments so that God could attribute that to us then I believe we agree for the most part. I believe that Jesus submitting to God's will (entirely) not only fulfilled the Mosaic Law but also also God's law (moral, covenant, all revelation and will of God) as a whole.

Jesus keepingthe law of God means that he was aways in the will of God at all times, sinless, and God accepted Him as te sacrifice in place of us for sins...

 

[JonC]

Jesus keepingthe law of God means that he was aways in the will of God at all times, sinless, and God accepted Him as te sacrifice in place of us for sins...

Define "Law".

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I believe that Jesus came to fulfill the law.

Our faith produces good works (works of the Spirit).

The Spirit within us causes us to produce good works, not our faith (Galatians 5:16, 22-23). Our faith justifies us.

Our object is not works but Christ. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to be enslaved by the law. He humbled himself and became obedient to God the Father. This is faith in God, obedience to God, even unto death, the death of the cross. And this fulfills the Law ( not just the moral Parts, the whole thing ).

You speak as if obedience to the Father is different to obedience to the Moral Law. The Moral law is the expression of God's character. Our Lord could not be obedient to the Father and not to the Law.

In other words, to love God with all of our heart, all of our mind, and all of our strength fulfills the Law.

Yes. If we love God how can we have other gods before Him, raise up idols in our hearts, take His name in vain etc.? 'If you love Me, keep My commandments.' But who of us accomplishes this, constantly, perfectly? Certainly not I, and I suspect not you either. That is why we need a Saviour; someone who will keep the broken law perfectly, and pay the penalty of God's righteous anger against sin, drinking the cup of His wrath down to the dregs.

Obedience is descriptive of this love. The Son loved the Father. The Son emptied himself in submission to the Father (faith) and became obedient (a result of that faith).

This is a whole new can of worms that I will leave on one side for the moment.

But you are not talking about Jesus fulfilling the Law. For that the Law would have to point to Christ.

But the law does point to Christ! 'For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes' (Romans 10:3). Not the end as divorce is the end of marriage, but as a terminus is the end of a railway line. Christ is where the law was always heading, where the law leads us (Galatians 3:24). He is the LORD our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6). We do not have a righteousness that exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, but He does. He is our robe of righteousness (Isaiah 61:10). When His perfect righteousness and obedience to the law is credited to us (1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:21) our righteousness does exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees and we do enter the kingdom of heaven.

You are talking about Jesus submitting not to the Father completely (thereby fulfilling the Law) but to moral compliance with Torah to be transferred to man.

They are the same thing. Christ could not submit completely to the Father without complying with the law.

Again, this is the tail wagging the dog.

Not at all.

 

[JonC]

The Spirit within us causes us to produce good works, not our faith (Galatians 5:16, 22-23). Our faith justifies us.

You speak as if obedience to the Father is different to obedience to the Moral Law. The Moral law is the expression of God's character. Our Lord could not be obedient to the Father and not to the Law.
Yes. If we love God how can we have other gods before Him, raise up idols in our hearts, take His name in vain etc.? 'If you love Me, keep My commandments.' But who of us accomplishes this, constantly, perfectly? Certainly not I, and I suspect not you either. That is why we need a Saviour; someone who will keep the broken law perfectly, and pay the penalty of God's righteous anger against sin, drinking the cup of His wrath down to the dregs.

This is a whole new can of worms that I will leave on one side for the moment.
But the law does point to Christ! 'For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes' (Romans 10:3). Not the end as divorce is the end of marriage, but as a terminus is the end of a railway line. Christ is where the law was always heading, where the law leads us (Galatians 3:24). He is the LORD our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6). We do not have a righteousness that exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, but He does. He is our robe of righteousness (Isaiah 61:10). When His perfect righteousness and obedience to the law is credited to us (1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:21) our righteousness does exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees and we do enter the kingdom of heaven.

They are the same thing. Christ could not submit completely to the Father without complying with the law.
Not at all.

No, I am saying that the whole Law is fulfilled in loving your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus could have refrained from non-compliance with the Law by not becoming man. Jesus did not lay down his life in obedience to the Ten Commandments. Jesus lat down his life in submission to the Father. And yes, all Christ did was by faith, by submission to God (this is faith/belief).

We either submit to God's will in faith through the Spirit or we act in rebellion on our own accord. Jesus did the former, thereby fulfilling the Law.

I hope you see the difference. If we love God we will keep His commands. This does not mean that we keep his commandments in order to love Him.

 

[JonC]

Jesus still had to physically die as our sin bearer, and take te wrath of God for the sin debt...

Yes, Jesus had to experience death. This is not only important because Jesus became man, because Jesus needed to experience what man experiences, but also because it was the will of the Father and Jesus placed his faith (by the power of the Spirit) in the Father.

As a man Jesus did not seek his own will but by faith he subjected himself to the will of God. This was by the power of the Spirit. All of the Law (not only the Ten Commandments, not only all of the moral aspects of the Law, but all of the Law as a whole) was fulfilled in Christ. Not because Jesus sought to do the Law but because Jesus was submissive to God. Jesus did not go down the list thinking "don't steal, don't kill, don't commit adultry, etc.". Jesus loved God, was faithful to God, and obeyed God.

And then we have us. By faith in Christ we are justified. But we are also, if this faith is true, obedient. And we do not seek our will but Christ's will. And we are obedient even to death, even to bearing our crosses daily and dying to the flesh so as to live in Christ. And this is how we are considered to be justified - in Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

No, I am saying that the whole Law is fulfilled in loving your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus could have refrained from non-compliance with the Law by not becoming man. Jesus did not lay down his life in obedience to the Ten Commandments. Jesus lat down his life in submission to the Father. And yes, all Christ did was by faith, by submission to God (this is faith/belief).

We either submit to God's will in faith through the Spirit or we act in rebellion on our own accord. Jesus did the former, thereby fulfilling the Law.

I hope you see the difference. If we love God we will keep His commands. This does not mean that we keep his commandments in order to love Him.

The entire Moral code/Law God gave Moses was what Jesus kept in full, both mind and body!

 

[Yeshua1]

Define "Law".

The moral code of God, what God sees as being Holy/Just required fo a sinner to do to live

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, Jesus had to experience death. This is not only important because Jesus became man, because Jesus needed to experience what man experiences, but also because it was the will of the Father and Jesus placed his faith (by the power of the Spirit) in the Father.

As a man Jesus did not seek his own will but by faith he subjected himself to the will of God. This was by the power of the Spirit. All of the Law (not only the Ten Commandments, not only all of the moral aspects of the Law, but all of the Law as a whole) was fulfilled in Christ. Not because Jesus sought to do the Law but because Jesus was submissive to God. Jesus did not go down the list thinking "don't steal, don't kill, don't commit adultry, etc.". Jesus loved God, was faithful to God, and obeyed God.

And then we have us. By faith in Christ we are justified. But we are also, if this faith is true, obedient. And we do not seek our will but Christ's will. And we are obedient even to death, even to bearing our crosses daily and dying to the flesh so as to live in Christ. And this is how we are considered to be justified - in Christ.

God takes the sin bearer fulfilling te law as the basis to declare us as sinners now saints, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

The Spirit within us causes us to produce good works, not our faith (Galatians 5:16, 22-23). Our faith justifies us.

You speak as if obedience to the Father is different to obedience to the Moral Law. The Moral law is the expression of God's character. Our Lord could not be obedient to the Father and not to the Law.
Yes. If we love God how can we have other gods before Him, raise up idols in our hearts, take His name in vain etc.? 'If you love Me, keep My commandments.' But who of us accomplishes this, constantly, perfectly? Certainly not I, and I suspect not you either. That is why we need a Saviour; someone who will keep the broken law perfectly, and pay the penalty of God's righteous anger against sin, drinking the cup of His wrath down to the dregs.

This is a whole new can of worms that I will leave on one side for the moment.
But the law does point to Christ! 'For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes' (Romans 10:3). Not the end as divorce is the end of marriage, but as a terminus is the end of a railway line. Christ is where the law was always heading, where the law leads us (Galatians 3:24). He is the LORD our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6). We do not have a righteousness that exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, but He does. He is our robe of righteousness (Isaiah 61:10). When His perfect righteousness and obedience to the law is credited to us (1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:21) our righteousness does exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees and we do enter the kingdom of heaven.

They are the same thing. Christ could not submit completely to the Father without complying with the law.
Not at all.

Still cannot get handle on how Jon can say Jesus fait and obedience to God saves us, but how can he be the sin bearer on ourbehalf if not due to Him keeping all aspects of the Law?

 

[JonC]

Still cannot get handle on how Jon can say Jesus fait and obedience to God saves us, but how can he be the sin bearer on ourbehalf if not due to Him keeping all aspects of the Law?

I believe the passage that says "if you love me you will obey my commands" and reject the heresy of man that we obey God's commands in order to love him.

How is that not clear? Do you also reject the idea that our obedience is a product of faith?

What I am saying is that Jesus lived the life of faith we should have lived. His eyes were on God, therefore he fulfilled all of the Law.

God is immutable. Jesus was not righteous because he perfectly obey the Ten Commandments. Jesus fulfilled the Law because he is righteous.

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe the passage that says "if you love me you will obey my commands" and reject the heresy of man that we obey God's commands in order to love him.

How is that not clear? Do you also reject the idea that our obedience is a product of faith?

What I am saying is that Jesus lived the life of faith we should have lived. His eyes were on God, therefore he fulfilled all of the Law.

God is immutable. Jesus was not righteous because he perfectly obey the Ten Commandments. Jesus fulfilled the Law because he is righteous.

Jesus was ableto fulfill andkeep the Law due to Himbeing God incarnate, as no sinner can do tha, as He was/is sinless hmanity and God at same time...

And we obey God because we love and him and desire to please and erve Him, not aworks. bu love relationship!

 

[JonC]

Jesus was ableto fulfill andkeep the Law due to Himbeing God incarnate, as no sinner can do tha, as He was/is sinless hmanity and God at same time...

And we obey God because we love and him and desire to please and erve Him, not aworks. bu love relationship!

No, Scripture is clear that Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, but without sin. And it is also clear that Jesus did nothing of his own accord but submitted to the will of the Father through the spirit. In fact the Bible tells us this over and over again. I'm not exactly sure why you continue to argue against it.

The problem with the church today is that God rests to lightly upon her. We want something easy, something simple. We want a Christ who came to obey the Ten Commandments for us, and attribute that obedience on our account so we are free. We want easy believism. But instead the Bible gives us a Christ who as man submit to God. Scripture gives us a Christ that does not do his will but through the spirit does the will of God. and this Christ is obedient even to death, even the death of a cross. And easy believism reject this Christ in favor of a savior who merely comes and obeys the Ten Commandments because if the Christ of the Bible is true then the Christian faith demands something of us. If the Christ of the Bible is true that we are to take up our cross daily and follow him. Is scripture is true then in faith we are to deny our will, that is the will of the flesh, and follow Christ. We are to have the mind of Christ in us. And if this is true then faith is trust and submission to God through Christ. And we must die to the flesh in order to live in Christ.

And this is the problem people have with the truth that Christ work of salvation was one of submission to the Father through the Spirit, thereby fulfilling the Ten Commandments and the Law as a whole. It means they too must take up their crosses and follow him.

 

[Yeshua1]

No, Scripture is clear that Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, but without sin. And it is also clear that Jesus did nothing of his own accord but submitted to the will of the Father through the spirit. In fact the Bible tells us this over and over again. I'm not exactly sure why you continue to argue against it.

The problem with the church today is that God rests to lightly upon her. We want something easy, something simple. We want a Christ who came to obey the Ten Commandments for us, and attribute that obedience on our account so we are free. We want easy believism. But instead the Bible gives us a Christ who as man submit to God. Scripture gives us a Christ that does not do his will but through the spirit does the will of God. and this Christ is obedient even to death, even the death of a cross. And easy believism reject this Christ in favor of a savior who merely comes and obeys the Ten Commandments because if the Christ of the Bible is true then the Christian faith demands something of us. If the Christ of the Bible is true that we are to take up our cross daily and follow him. Is scripture is true then in faith we are to deny our will, that is the will of the flesh, and follow Christ. We are to have the mind of Christ in us. And if this is true then faith is trust and submission to God through Christ. And we must die to the flesh in order to live in Christ.

And this is the problem people have with the truth that Christ work of salvation was one of submission to the Father through the Spirit, thereby fulfilling the Ten Commandments and the Law as a whole. It means they too must take up their crosses and follow him.

Jesus was/is God, so He could Not sin, but could and did experinence temptations to sin in His Humanity. And Jesu did in our stead, and kept wholly the Law as God intended in order to live, and holding to penal substitionary atonement model does not make one an easy believer, ask the stauch reformers, cavinist, and Baptists who have held to it!

 

[Yeshua1]

No, Scripture is clear that Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, but without sin. And it is also clear that Jesus did nothing of his own accord but submitted to the will of the Father through the spirit. In fact the Bible tells us this over and over again. I'm not exactly sure why you continue to argue against it.

The problem with the church today is that God rests to lightly upon her. We want something easy, something simple. We want a Christ who came to obey the Ten Commandments for us, and attribute that obedience on our account so we are free. We want easy believism. But instead the Bible gives us a Christ who as man submit to God. Scripture gives us a Christ that does not do his will but through the spirit does the will of God. and this Christ is obedient even to death, even the death of a cross. And easy believism reject this Christ in favor of a savior who merely comes and obeys the Ten Commandments because if the Christ of the Bible is true then the Christian faith demands something of us. If the Christ of the Bible is true that we are to take up our cross daily and follow him. Is scripture is true then in faith we are to deny our will, that is the will of the flesh, and follow Christ. We are to have the mind of Christ in us. And if this is true then faith is trust and submission to God through Christ. And we must die to the flesh in order to live in Christ.

And this is the problem people have with the truth that Christ work of salvation was one of submission to the Father through the Spirit, thereby fulfilling the Ten Commandments and the Law as a whole. It means they too must take up their crosses and follow him.

Jesus at times did mirackes, he knew hearts and minds, he could raise the dead, at other times he felt hungry, did not know things, so think tha He was manifesting His deity at times!

 

[JonC]

Jesus was/is God, so He could Not sin, but could and did experinence temptations to sin in His Humanity. And Jesu did in our stead, and kept wholly the Law as God intended in order to live, and holding to penal substitionary atonement model does not make one an easy believer, ask the stauch reformers, cavinist, and Baptists who have held to it!

Not the Reformers. The traditional definition of Christ’s obedience is both active and passive obedience (the obedientia active and obedientia passive). This is not obeying the Ten Commandments in order that this be imputed to man. Instead the active obedience includes the life of Christ from his birth to his passion (especially Christ’s ministry where he acted sinlessly and in perfect obedience to the will of God). The passive obedience refers to Christ’s passion, which Jesus accepted passively and without resistance, again in submission to God’s will as he suffered the cross for the satisfaction of our sins. These two are not separated, but the distinctions are noted. Christ suffered the consequences of the Law and he fulfilled the requirements of perfect obedience to the Law throughout the course of his life and ministry. Upon this basis (Christ’s submission in obedience to God’s will, both actively and passively), believers are not only forgiven but they are regarded as righteous and heirs by virtue of their participation in the complete righteousness of Christ under the law of God.

Within Reformed Theology this topic has been debated, largely on exactly what is reckoned to the believer. To what extent is this attributed righteousness obedientia active and to what extend is it obedientia passive. Luther seems to have leaned towards passive obedience while Calvin seems to have leaned towards (if not specifically arrived at) active obedience. But even with Calvin (and it is debatable to what extent he moved from passive obedience) this was the active ministry of Christ (and obedience to God’s law) in the Son’s submission to the Father (what you are rejecting).

In other words, while your view is not traditionally the view of the Reformers or of Calvinists, I do understand how it could be viewed as a "hyper" or neo-Calvinistic view as it denies obedientia passive all together and restricts obedientia active to Christ's obedience to the Ten Commandments. On the other hand, your basis is not the faithful obedience of Christ to the Father but Jesus' obedience to the Ten Commandments, so I am not sure that it can even truly be considered a hyper view of Calvinism either.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

God is immutable. Jesus was not righteous because he perfectly obey the Ten Commandments. Jesus fulfilled the Law because he is righteous.

Which of the Ten Commandments do you think he did not obey?