Heavenly Pilgrim said:
It has been suggested by HOG and confirmed by JJ that the word eternal at one point in time meant only to convey the concept of a 1000 year kingdom period, and not simply everlasting or without end. To believe this was so involves the crazy notion that all that used the word eternal also understood the concept of a 1000 year Kingdom period. Is HOG or JJ to tell us that the idea of everlasting or without end was never understood or comprehended until this generation or generations of our recent past? If not, HOG or JJ need to inform the list of the GK word or words used to convey such a universally understood concept, or clearly deny the obvious, i.e., there always has been such a universally understood notion known by all men of reason to exist, and to suggest that they had no way of expressing such an idea out side of the confines of a ‘1000 year kingdom period,’ a period most had no idea even existed, is simply absurd.
HOG or JJ have yet to supply the list with one solitary clear piece of evidence that the word 'eternal' was every shown to depict the 100 year kingdom period or that the context of Scripture would point to such a rendering of the word, or that any exegetical work worth its salt has ever suggested such a limited definition placed upon the word. I am still waiting for such evidence.
You know, when you distort the truth to try to "prove" your point, it makes one ask: "If he has truth on his side, why did he lie?"
Now, the truth is, that I proved, through the use of etymological sources that "eternal" simply meant "a long time" when it was first introduced into the English language. The first written usage of the word was in 1366. It was borrowed from the Old French, which borrowed if from the Latin word for "great age".
Then, I asked you a question (which I'm not surprised that you refused to answer it; it will either show your ignorance or prove my point) of what does the Greek word "aiOn" mean? Well, I'll let the BDAG tell ya: (You need to put down your Strong's; it's good for numbers, but not much else.)
αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ (
Hom.+;
gener. ‘an extended period of time’, in
var. senses)
a long period of time, without ref. to beginning or end,
Hom Hom , VIII b.c.—List 5
Arndt, William ; Danker, Frederick W. ; Bauer, Walter:
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. 3rd ed. Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 2000, S. 32
Now, "aionios" is the adjective form of that. It means "age-lasting", not "forever".
Which brings us to the next point in your less-than-truthful statement that I supposedly said the Greek has no concept of "forever".
Well, I asked you a question, which unsurprisingly you refused to answer, of what does "aidios" mean? This is the closest that the Greek comes to expressing "eternal" (as in "without beginning or ending" or "existing outside of time".) It's used twice in the Bible.
Now, the Greek also has an expression that means "forever" (which many people call "eternal" in modern English) and that is [FONT="]The expression in Greek that means “everlasting” is [/FONT][FONT="]εις τοὺς αιωνας των αιώνων or literally “from the ages unto the ages”. It is found in 16 passages, although there is some doubt about the one in Revelation 14:11 because of the omission of the definite articles. If I'm not mistaken, the KJV always translates this "forever and ever". (If anyone is interested in the places where it's found, let me know.)
The Greek has a word for "eternal"; it has an expression for "forever"; "aionios" does neither of those.
Now, onto another obfuscation of the truth that you have made, I have never said that "eternal" by itself referred to the coming Kingdom. What I said was "eternal" simply meant "a long time". "Aionios" is "age-lasting", and the age to come, we are told plainly in Scripture is 1000 years. (I also pointed out that one society set a time limit on it.) "Aionios", which is found in 65 verses, is translated in a few different ways, but most importantly, if you think it's referring to spiritual salvation, then you believe in being saved by works or you believe that it can be lost or forfeited.
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Is HOG or JJ to tell us that the idea of everlasting or without end was never understood or comprehended until this generation or generations of our recent past?
This question, which is intended to cause someone to form an opinion is an out-and-out lie!
Why do you resort to such tactics?
Neither one of us has ever stated anything even remotely resembling what you are implying.
Instead of lying about what someone says, why not have an honest dialogue about what is actually said or what the Scriptures say?
I have to stop, because your lies are making me angry. I will come back to this subject later.
But, let me ask you another question that I bet you will be hesitant to answer: What is baptism?
