Forfeiting Salvation versus Losing Salvation - What is the difference?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eric B.: Today, to go up to a person suffering and tell them, "Oh, God is doing this for your own good; Oh, your attitude is not good enough! If you want to receive "grace", you will have to grin and bear it", will cause more distress (But it does sell millions in teaching media, engagements, etc).

HP: I agree that such instruction as you point out here is most likely in error. Just the same, is it wrong for us to ask ourselves if in fact we have brought something upon ourselves that under the circumstances God has felt it best to allow physical suffering or pain into our lives for our good or for the good of others around us?

I can remember my saintly mother as she poured out her heart for her children in prayers praying, “Lord whatever the cost, save my children.” I know that she was not wishing harm to them in any way, and was including in her petition a willingness to endure hardship or suffering on her part if in fact it would facilitate the desire and longings of her heart.

In my own life as physical suffering has became my lot, that I have used these occasions to search my own heart to see if in fact God might have brought the circumstances I face upon me, or allowed them to be placed upon me, to purify my heart and to draw me to trust in Him. There has been at least one occassion in my life where I was convinced that such was indeed the case. I was brought to a quick state of repentance and subsequent obedience. I thanked the Lord that He loved me enough to check me as he did.

I would never suggest to anyone that their sufferings are the results of a need or actions on their part, yet just the same, I ‘might’ under some circumstances, in fact admonish them to allow God to use these circumstances for their benefit, and to examine themselves during these periods of trials to allow God to reveal to them their heart lest there be something hidden in their lives that needs to be addressed or that possibly God could be trying to develop their character for the good.

Would you see that as in error or wrong?

 

[Eric B]

Most of these things we go through we use in such "testimonies" as you have given are what everyone else in the world go through, including all the nonbelievers.

It used to confuse me to no end when my early spiritual mentors would apply all those scriptures on why God might be "doing" or "allowing" things, but then eventually, they will come up with "it is jus the fallen world", even quoting passages like Job "Man is born unto trouble". On one hand, we are made to think we are special, receiving "special attention" from God which to some makes it seem being spared from many problems others in the world go through; or then it's changed to God is sending pain to "work together for some good", but when this good never appears, it is either "Well, in the next world" (Heavenly rewards), or the last resort, it's just the normal suffering of the world.

If that's the case, you might as well have said that at the beginning.
Yeah, something you are going through could hypothetically be God's punishment, but then, you would expect everyone who does wrong to be punished, and everyone who does right to prosper. But then we are reminded of the scriptures that say the godly suffer, and finally, again, that all man suffers and/or that everyone reaps what they sow. So again, you might as well look into that reason first, and if you didn't sow it, then life doesn't always work out all fair like that.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eric B: then life doesn't always work out all fair like that.

HP: Isn’t that the truth, at least I how we might view fairness. From God’s perspective, of which I am not privy to, things I am sure indeed look differently.

As a child of the King, I rest assured that nothing that happens to me goes without His notice, and I believe He watches over His children as a hen would her chicks. Still the same, we do live in a fallen world where God has chose to allow evil to often play itself out for reasons only known to Himself. I cannot help but believe that if God allows what seems as evil to us of limited understanding, from His Omniscient perspective he sees it somehow as working for good. I did not say that God sees evil as good, but that He sees allowing evil to continue for a season that it will somehow be eternally found ‘working for good.’

I see evil being played out here in this world to have some eternal effect on stopping rebellion and evil. I do not know or understand how it will serve that purpose, but something tells me that it will.

 

[ccdnt]

In short!

You ain't got it in the one case, and you ain't got it in the other case. How is that different, in the final analysis?

A = A!

Ed

True...if one forfeits his salvation, he no longer has it, and if one could lose (or loses - depending on what you believe the Bible teaches about this) his salvation, he would no longer have it then either.

The end result would be the same in the sense that in both cases the person would no longer be saved. However, when one says one can forfeit his salvation, he usually means that the person is no longer saved because he no longer wants to be...he stops believing in Christ, he stops having faith in Christ to save him, he chooses to no longer abide in Christ...
When one says one can lose his salvation, he usually means that is can be lost by sin (or certain sins), not forgiving others, etc.

JDale can probably explain this better than I can (and I think it has already been explained in an earlier post in this thread).

 

[BobRyan]

Christ speaks to the issue of losing salvation in Matt 18 in the parable of forgiveness revoked.

But in that example - the one having forgiveness revoked does not say "I want my forgiveness revoked". Rather the wicked servant that will not forgive others JUST AS HE HAS been forgiven - wants to STAY in favor with the king -

You see the same with those who are lost in Matt 7.

In Christ,
Bob

 

[Ex-Fundy]

Quote:
And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. (Hebrews 7:23-28 KJV)

HP: Jump in with both feet!!

Lets just look at the first passage. In your own words, can you point to a specific part of this passage that stuck out at you that established in your mind the notion of eternal security?

I believe the Scriptures teach eternal security, but not apart from conditions to be met on our part, remaining faithful being one. I cannot see anything in the passage you quoted that would establish any notion that one cannot leave their first love, sin, remain in an unrepentant state, and eventually be lost. That to me is what those teaching eternal security, apart from the condition of sustained obedience, are implying is not possible. If that is not what you believe is possible, you may need to establish for the list what it is that you do believe.

You know. I would do this, But seeing this has devolved into a name calling fest. I don't think I really want to be involved in it. I tend to get emotional when dealing with Bible denying apostates. so, I will refrain from this discussion.

Ex-Fundy.

 

[EdSutton]

You know. I would do this, But seeing this has devolved into a name calling fest. I don't think I really want to be involved in it. I tend to get emotional when dealing with Bible denying apostates. so, I will refrain from this discussion.

Ex-Fundy.

Let me repeat some parts of this, again, just to make sure no one missed it.

I tend to get emotional when dealing with Bible denying apostates. . . .

But seeing this has devolved into a name calling fest. . . .

Since, personally, I would consider labeling someone as "Bible denying apostates" without any references as to 'why' as "name calling', I ask "May I consider this to be -

Exhibit A?"?

Ed

 

[Hope of Glory]

Exhibit "A" admitted.

Next!

 

[D28guy]

Original topic...

"Forfeiting Salvation versus Losing Salvation - What is the difference?"

I dont think it makes any difference since a born again, purchased, Spirit sealed, in Christs hands believer will not under any circumstances forfeit their salvation, and they cant under any circumstances lose it.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

D28Guy: I dont think it makes any difference since a born again, purchased, Spirit sealed, in Christs hands believer will not under any circumstances forfeit their salvation, and they cant under any circumstances lose it.

HP: To simply state something, or to say one thinks something, is one matter, to support that notion with Scripture and reason is another. What support do you have for your belief?

I am just curious to know whether or not you consider yourself to be a Calvinist and if so what you see yourself as, a three, four, or five point one? Thanks.

 

[DHK]

HP: To simply state something, or to say one thinks something, is one matter, to support that notion with Scripture and reason is another. What support do you have for your belief?

I am just curious to know whether or not you consider yourself to be a Calvinist and if so what you see yourself as, a three, four, or five point one? Thanks.

I will let D28guy answer for himself.
Some of us don't consider oursleves Calvinists at all.
Neither do we consider ourselves Arminians.
Why are we put in the box of another man's theology. I prefer to believe the Bible instead.

 

[D28guy]

Heavenly Pilgrim,

"HP: To simply state something, or to say one thinks something, is one matter, to support that notion with Scripture and reason is another. What support do you have for your belief?

I am just curious to know whether or not you consider yourself to be a Calvinist and if so what you see yourself as, a three, four, or five point one? Thanks."

Oh, I dont much get into all those categories that are out there. I am a born again child of the living God.

I will say that I have read literature...and heard radio/TV broadcasts...that is "arminian" in nature and also information that is "calvinistic" in nature, and there is good and profitable truth in both. But the calvinistic teaching is more compelling to me and seems to have the "ring" of truth to it. Arminian teaching to me causes me to sort of say to myself "yeah, but..." and "but what about..." a lot. The more calvinistic teaching seems to have "all the bases covered" as they say.

But either way I am completly confident and will not be moved from my confidence in God and my belief...leaning on the rock of Gods scriptures as the source of my confidence...that the once born child of God is 100% secure and is a good for heaven now as he/she will be on the day they arrive there. They can not be lost again because God is not a liar. They can not be lost again because God has spoken and declared that they are His children, and God will keep them safe.

Here are a few sciptures, but these are just the proverbial tip of the iceberg. I could post them until I pass out from exaustion...

(btw, for some reason the software keeps putting quote boxes in places I dont want them to be. I have no idea why. I have gone back into it about 5 times now and this is a clean as I can get it. The quotes still arent 100% right...sometimes the last part of a quote is in the next quote...but this is as close as I can get it.)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
1:5
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
1:6
to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace, that

in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both F1 which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.

1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
1:12
that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
1:14
who F2 is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

10:25
Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
10:26
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
10:28
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
10:29
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
10:30
I and My Father are one."

1:12
giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
1:13
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
1:14
in whom we have redemption through His blood,

the forgiveness of sins.

And regarding those who publically and permanently renounce Christ..("forfeiting" salvation)..the scripture tells us:

"They went out from us because they never were part of us"



Grace and peace to you,

Mike

 

[Hope of Glory]

I do know that if you believe that your spiritual salvation can be lost or forfeited, then there are contradictions in the Bible.

Acts 16:31 is one example. "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." No ifs, ands, or buts. Every major text has the same thing, and every manuscript that I am aware of has the same thing.

How many contradictions are you willing to accept?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

D28Guy:Here are a few sciptures, but these are just the proverbial tip of the iceberg.

HP: There is not one text you mention that I read OSAS in. It always helps to limit your passages in discussion. It does not help ones argument to pile on Scriptures without clear explanations as to what you believe they show. How about taking one or two at the most that you feel best state OSAS, and then try to establish it from the text, giving the list the reasons why you feel the text supports OSAS. Then we can discuss your findings.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HOG: I do know that if you believe that your spiritual salvation can be lost or forfeited, then there are contradictions in the Bible.

Acts 16:31 is one example. "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." No ifs, ands, or buts. Every major text has the same thing, and every manuscript that I am aware of has the same thing.

How many contradictions are you willing to accept?

HP: I do not believe there are any contradictions in Scripture. The problem lies in the presuppositions you have to hold to arrive at your conclusions. You read into the text your own definition of salvation, i.e. OSAS. That is simply not supported in Scripture that I can find. What support do you have for your definition of what it means to be saved? Where does it state that once a believer always a believer, or once saved always saved?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Where does it state that once a believer always a believer, or once saved always saved?

It simply states that if you believe on the Lord Jesus, you will be saved.

"Believe" is punctiliar, not durative.

"Will be saved" is indicative. It's something that will happen. (Unless God is not capable of keeping his promises.)

If you can believe on the Lord Jesus and at some point in the future still not be saved, then either God's a liar or the Bible is worthless. (What other lies could it contain?)

 

[D28guy]

"HP: There is not one text you mention that I read OSAS in."

Thats too bad.

You really dont see eternal security in these passages?...

"having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."



"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."

"...has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,"



"He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"






What does "sealed for the day of redemption", and "the guarentee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased posession mean to you?

That Gods "seal" actually leaks, and that Gods "guarantee" means nothing?

What does "neither shall anyone snatch them out of my Hand" and "no one is able to snatch them out of my Fathers hand" mean to you?

That actually we can be snatched out of Gods hand and we actually can be snatched out of Christs hand?

What does being "delivered" from the power of darkness and "conveyed" into the "Kingdom of His Son" mean to you?

That the darkness is more powerful then God and we can somehow be un-delivered and un-conveyed from Gods Kingdom?

Mike

 

[Eliyahu]

I believe OSAS.
One of the worst behaviorally sinful person is mentioned in 1 Cor 5 whose spirit is still saved.

The strongest argument against OSAS may be the case of Apostasy which looks like Forfeiting Salvation by oneself.

But if we look at 1 John 2:19, we can see that such person was not saved from the beginning and it was revealed at such occasion.

Mt 7:23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity ( Jesus neveer knew from the beginning)

I don't need Calvin for my belief on this, as I believe Calvin was an Apostate in Infant Baptism, Baptismal Regenerarion, Clergy System, eventually killing people then never repented on it.

Bible is enough for me even on this issue.

 

[drfuss]

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."

OSAS Christians continue to say this verse supports OSAS even though it does not. They skip over the words "and they follow me". As long as you follow Christ, you continue to be His sheep. Stop following Christ and you remove yourself from being His sheep.

OSAS would be supported (established) if that verse said: My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they cannot (or will not) stop following Me. But it does not say "they cannot (or will not) stop following Me". If OSAS was correct, it would say that. The fact is this verse implies that OSAS is not correct.

However, OSAS Christians have been told that this verse means OSAS for so long and so often, that we will continue to see it being used to support OSAS.

 

[Eliyahu]

Once we are saved, we are always taken care of by Him to continue to follow Him as we do not cease breathing. When we cease breathing we take rest and will be complete custody of the Lord.

Fortunately we are not stopped by anyone, believing in Him.