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Forfeiting Salvation versus Losing Salvation - What is the difference?
- Thread starter ccdnt
- Start date
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: The only side I wish to be on is the side of truth. I am on your side and DHK’s side as well in areas I believe are in accordance to truth.:thumbs:
I must have missed the post by ccnt you are referring to. Do you remember which page it was on? Thanks!
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Why don't you post the quote in context? I can find nothing even close to what you alluded to. Thanks!
"NASB-Heavenly Pilgrim said:
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
No problem here. This says nothing about what happens if the person chooses not to abide in Christ. Also, the tense of the verb "comes" is in the present tense as shown in YLT -
37all that the Father doth give to me will come unto me; and him who is coming unto me, I may in no wise cast without,
A person must continue to come to the Lord."
The chapter was addressed to believers (Jewish believers) in general.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
However it is very evident that among this group of believers there were some that did not believe.
Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
The expression "in any of you" implies that there were some that had an heart of unbelief. Paul is warning against that condition.
This is correct. There were some among them that had a heart of unbelief. But the question that has to be asked is unbelief in relation to what. You say unbelief in relation to eternal salvation, but that's not even the context of Hebrews. Hebrews is dealing with believing "after" eternal salvation has already taken place.
The heart of unbelief was in regard to a future salvation, not salvation by grace through faith.
These were all "saved" individuals, but some as you have correctly pointed out had a heart of unbelief in regard to the salvation of the soul not the salvation of the spirit.
It is just like the children of Israel that died in the wilderness. They died because of their unbelief, but they weren't unsaved. They died in relation to the land they were called to. The salvation spoken of in Hebrews is in relation to a land that we as "saved" individuals are called to.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Cast out for unbelief - yet able to graft them in again
Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
The facinating thing is that God is not only that this shows salvation revoked - it also shows that "God is able to graft them back in again"!!
Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
The facinating thing is that God is not only that this shows salvation revoked - it also shows that "God is able to graft them back in again"!!
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I agree.
Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
HP: This is indeed true in almost every passage addressed to the Church. Just the same, what does that fact have to do with the specific context of this passage, when it is clearly addressed to believers, not unbelievers? Your argument has been presented in such a way as to eliminate 'even the possibility' that the warning was for the believers the context states emphatically it was specifically addressed to. How is such an approach to handling the Word of God seen as being in line with wisdom?
Shall we deny the most obvious and clearly stated context, while we insert a possibility not stated at all, nor directly implied by the text, just to eliminate any possible evidence that would go counter to our presuppositions of OSAS? That seems to me your object thus far. You deny even the ‘possibility’ that the author is trying to drive home his stated point to his stated directed audience.
HP: Indeed he is, and the context and object is directed to and involves those that Scripture clearly and pointedly states it is, i.e., the believer, the holy brethren, partaker of the heavenly calling.
You may think that I am biased and start with the presupposition of OSAS, and then work everything around it. To some extent that is true. The reason is, that I understand the doctrine of salvation, what Christ did on the cross; that he paid the full penalty, that we can't pay any of it; that the gift of salvation cannot be lost, that eternal means eternal and never termporary, and for many other reasons. That being the case, the "proof texts" given by those taking the position that salvation can be lost or forfeited must of a necessity have some other meaning for they do not go contrary to the basic teaching of the Bible. The Bible does not contradict itself.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Let's take another example. The Catholic's, COC, and others believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. I don't. Yet there are some "proof texts" that are hard for some Baptists to deal with. We know that they don't teach baptismal regeneration because that is contrary to the overall teaching of the Bible. So they must have some other meaning. Our duty is to find out what the meaning of those passages mean, and why they don't teach baptismal regeneration as the COC adamantly declare they do.
OSAS and the seemingly opposing verses is akin to the same scenario.
Hope of Glory
New Member
In Roman 11:20, "unbelief" is "faith" preceded by the negative prefix "a". "Un-faith".
Faith is a lifestyle. It's something that comes after one is saved.
Faith is a lifestyle. It's something that comes after one is saved.
That is only partly true.Hope of Glory said:
"We walk by faith and not by sight." There is no doubt that the Christian life is a life to be lived by faith.
However salvation is a one-time act whereby a person puts "their" faith in Christ and his work on the cross. It is his decision, a choice that he must make. Inasmuch as man chooses a bride for himself, he must choose Christ to be his bridegroom; his Saviour.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I appreciate the honesty of your post. Obviously nothing can alter ones findings in the Word of God if in fact it is driven by ones self-assumed presuppositions. What can you honestly hope to gain from the study of the Word of God when you read into every passage that disagrees with your presuppositions your own biased conclusions?
I can think of no better tool of the enemy of our soul than to persuade one that every warning in the Word of God to remain faithful and steadfast lest they enter into sin, are deceived by its deceitfulness, and eventually be lost, does not affect them or any other believer. God tries to warn, but the believer blindly goes out his business thinking and convinced that God’s warnings are no way directed towards them. Again, I can think of no greater possibility of deception than such thinking affords.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: There is not one solitary Scripture that teaches or implies baptismal regeneration.
This is not a matter of a single text DHK. There are numerous warnings to believers concerning falling away, turning back, rejecting the truth we once believed. That in no way diminishes the fact that God is able and promises to sustain us, but that sustaining will not be apart from our willing obedience and continued faith and trust in His provisions.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Hope of Glory said:
Certainly those who ARE IN the faith are those who ARE saved.
So when we see them cast out and God saying "He is able to graft them in AGAIN" we see not only that OSAS is fully debunked - we see that God can SAVE those who were saved - then lost.
In Christ,
Bob