Forgiveness

[Revmitchell]

The issue of forgiveness came up in another thread. Here is my position on forgiveness:

Definition:

Forgiveness: to treat the offender as if they never offended you.

Scenario:

A pastor has an affair with your wife.


Response:

There are two offending parties in this scenario. The pastor and the wife. What obligations do we as Christians have in response to the offenders?

It is my position that forgiveness can only occur when repentance has been achieved. To forgive is to act and treat the offenders as if it never happened. If the pastor had truly been forgiven then he will not loose his position as a pastor. The relationship with the wife will continue on as if it never happened. Unless this has occurred then forgiveness has not happened.


Biblical support:

Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Summary:

Freeing yourself form the emotions of being offended such as anger, outrage, hatred etc. is not the same thing and forgiving. Those are two seperate issues.

We are not forgiven by God and thus saved unless we repent.

Repentance is always necessary for forgiveness to be had.

 

[The American Dream]

The issue of forgiveness came up in another thread. Here is my position on forgiveness:

Definition:

Forgiveness: to treat the offender as if they never offended you.

Scenario:

A pastor has an affair with your wife.


Response:

There are two offending parties in this scenario. The pastor and the wife. What obligations do we as Christians have in response to the offenders?

It is my position that forgiveness can only occur when repentance has been achieved. To forgive is to act and treat the offenders as if it never happened. If the pastor had truly been forgiven then he will not loose his position as a pastor. The relationship with the wife will continue on as if it never happened. Unless this has occurred then forgiveness has not happened.


Biblical support:

Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Summary:

Freeing yourself form the emotions of being offended such as anger, outrage, hatred etc. is not the same thing and forgiving. Those are two seperate issues.

We are not forgiven by God and thus saved unless we repent.

Repentance is always necessary for forgiveness to be had.

Pure baloney. First, the thread did not need to be created. The original thread was not off topic. Second the verses you quote are not related to the question. Christ said to forgive someone 7 times 70. He said nothing about repentance before forgiveness. Give some verses that apply.

 

[Revmitchell]

Pure baloney. First, the thread did not need to be created. The original thread was not off topic. Second the verses you quote are not related to the question. Christ said to forgive someone 7 times 70. He said nothing about repentance before forgiveness. Give some verses that apply.

Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

 

[HAMel]

Rev..., I am far from where I should be after all these years but I do suffer from the ills of the flesh on a daily basis. Satan will not allow even the slightest offence to get past you and under your skin to agitate. Everything is fair game to him.

Since becoming a Christian back in 1972 I have been more offended by and from other believers than you can shake a stick at. I am by nature an easy going person and have no agenda of elevating myself. When called upon I can take center stage but don't try to push my weight around demanding any special treatment.

For the most part I just let an offense/issue role on off but then again..., who am I kidding? Myself? Yep. Being human I find that once one brings "First Blood" I walk away physically but mentally and emotionally..., the wound never heals. Over the years I have yet to be approached by anyone desiring to apologize and/or ask forgiveness for a wrong. They usually just avoid me and only speak when required.

Recently my wife and I celebrated a minor milestone in our life. All the church members were invited. It was a small celebration in which hot dogs were offered. One of our more prominent members announced that they don't eat hot dogs. Okay..., don't eat one then! At the next church "cook-out" this boy sat down and ate two hot dogs just like he knew what he was doing.

The issue wasn't the Hot-Dogs per se but us. My wife and I aren't family. To be honest with you I took offense and still haven't gotten over it. There's simply no reason for such an attitude.

So, I do suppose that I've forgiven this individual as I've let the issue roll off but then again...

 

[PreachTony]

Pure baloney. First, the thread did not need to be created. The original thread was not off topic. Second the verses you quote are not related to the question. Christ said to forgive someone 7 times 70. He said nothing about repentance before forgiveness. Give some verses that apply.

Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Consider this scripture, though:

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Neither Peter nor Jesus mention anything about that brother seeking to repent before we forgive. The sinner repenting has nothing to do with me forgiving him. His repentance does not gain me anything. It is for him. My forgiveness of his actions is for me, not him. That's my take, anyway...without delving too deeply into the spirituality of the situation.

 

[Revmitchell]

Consider this scripture, though:

Neither Peter nor Jesus mention anything about that brother seeking to repent before we forgive. The sinner repenting has nothing to do with me forgiving him. His repentance does not gain me anything. It is for him. My forgiveness of his actions is for me, not him. That's my take, anyway...without delving too deeply into the spirituality of the situation.

Considered. Take a look back at some previous verses in that chaper:

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

This would be the context of the verses you provided.

 

[PreachTony]

Considered. Take a look back at some previous verses in that chaper:

This would be the context of the verses you provided.

True, but someone can be forgiven by me and still be a heathen to God. Again, the forgiveness we are talking about here is not forgiveness unto salvation but rather personal forgiveness between two very human individuals. It does not matter if that person refuses to hear me. When I go to them by myself and they don't hear me; when I go with witnesses and they don't hear me; when I go before the church and they don't hear me, then let them be a heathen. For my own peace and civility I should still forgive them. Otherwise I hold a grudge, I can be angry with them, and the longer I hold that grudge the more bitter I become. Ephesians 4:26b "...let not the sun go down upon your wrath."

 

[annsni]

So that means that we must harbor resentment and anger against someone until they come to ask forgiveness? I just don't see that practically and in the Scriptures. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. He paid the price for our sins before we even knew we were sinners.

I NEED to be able to forgive regardless of the other party's stance on the issue because if I don't forgive, it will hurt me. I will not be able to move on. What if the person never comes back? What if they died? Do I not forgive them and just tell God "Hey, they never asked for it so I never gave it."? I don't think so.

 

[Use of Time]

So that means that we must harbor resentment and anger against someone until they come to ask forgiveness? I just don't see that practically and in the Scriptures. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. He paid the price for our sins before we even knew we were sinners.

I NEED to be able to forgive regardless of the other party's stance on the issue because if I don't forgive, it will hurt me. I will not be able to move on. What if the person never comes back? What if they died? Do I not forgive them and just tell God "Hey, they never asked for it so I never gave it."? I don't think so.

Bingo. Well said.

 

[PreachTony]

So that means that we must harbor resentment and anger against someone until they come to ask forgiveness? I just don't see that practically and in the Scriptures. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. He paid the price for our sins before we even knew we were sinners.

I NEED to be able to forgive regardless of the other party's stance on the issue because if I don't forgive, it will hurt me. I will not be able to move on. What if the person never comes back? What if they died? Do I not forgive them and just tell God "Hey, they never asked for it so I never gave it."? I don't think so.

:applause::thumbs::applause:

 

[Revmitchell]

So that means that we must harbor resentment and anger against someone until they come to ask forgiveness?

I did not say that? You are conflating the emotions with forgiveness. That is not what forgiveness is. Forgiveness is not no longer feeling ill toward the offend. It is simply treating them as if they never did it. You can choose to no longer feel resentful and still not have forgiven them.

 

[PreachTony]

I did not say that? You are conflating the emotions with forgiveness. That is not what forgiveness is. Forgiveness is not no longer feeling ill toward the offend. It is simply treating them as if they never did it. You can choose to no longer feel resentful and still not have forgiven them.

Is that truly what forgiveness is? Is it truly acting as though what they did never happened? That seems to ignore the long-lasting consequences of sin. God forgives us our sins, but we still have to deal with the consequences of those sins. Why should it be any different at the human level?

 

[annsni]

I did not say that? You are conflating the emotions with forgiveness. That is not what forgiveness is. Forgiveness is not no longer feeling ill toward the offend. It is simply treating them as if they never did it. You can choose to no longer feel resentful and still not have forgiven them.

Is forgiveness treating them as if they never did the offense against you? So if a family friend injured one of my children and they asked forgiveness, would I treat them as if they never hurt my child? Or do I forgive them - and now am cautious when we are around them or maybe even choose to no longer be around them because of the safety of my children? I go with the second.

We can't always just treat the person as if they have never offended us because in some cases, it will result in a change of status of that person in our lives. It's just the way it has to be.

 

[Revmitchell]

Is forgiveness treating them as if they never did the offense against you? So if a family friend injured one of my children and they asked forgiveness, would I treat them as if they never hurt my child? Or do I forgive them - and now am cautious when we are around them or maybe even choose to no longer be around them because of the safety of my children? I go with the second.

We can't always just treat the person as if they have never offended us because in some cases, it will result in a change of status of that person in our lives. It's just the way it has to be.

You cannot be cautious around them and still say you have forgiven them. That is not a commentary on what you should do just a statement of fact.

 

[annsni]

You cannot be cautious around them and still say you have forgiven them. That is not a commentary on what you should do just a statement of fact.

I will disagree on that. It's just called "wisdom". Let's say a man in your congregation molested a child in your church. He has repented of his sin publicly in the church and the family who'd child was molested forgives him. Do we now allow this man to meet privately with that child for Sunday school?

 

[Revmitchell]

I will disagree on that. It's just called "wisdom". Let's say a man in your congregation molested a child in your church. He has repented of his sin publicly in the church and the family who'd child was molested forgives him. Do we now allow this man to meet privately with that child for Sunday school?

I am not saying its not wisdom or that it should not be done. And no we do not. Neither can we say that we have forgiven him.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Rev,
You are confusing forgiveness with trust and consequences. I can forgive someone for stealing from the church, but I won't trust them.

I can forgive someone for cutting off my right arm but I am always going to be cautious about them when I see them with a knife.

God can forgive people and refuse to remember it again, but we can't.

 

[Revmitchell]

Rev,
You are confusing forgiveness with trust and consequences. I can forgive someone for stealing from the church, but I won't trust them.

I can forgive someone for cutting off my right arm but I am always going to be cautious about them when I see them with a knife.

God can forgive people and refuse to remember it again, but we can't.

Forgiveness requires that there is no consequences demanded. It is the very nature of our forgiveness by God.

 

[PreachTony]

Forgiveness requires that there is no consequences demanded. It is the very nature of our forgiveness by God.

If a man sins by getting a woman pregnant prior to marriage, even if they get married and repent of their sin, does that mean the consequence of their sin (the child) just doesn't happen? That seems to be what you are saying...

 

[Revmitchell]

If a man sins by getting a woman pregnant prior to marriage, even if they get married and repent of their sin, does that mean the consequence of their sin (the child) just doesn't happen? That seems to be what you are saying...

That is not the same thing as what I said. PLease go back and reread my post. What I said was that if we have truly forgiven them then we do not demand consequences. That is not the same thing as suffering consequences beyond anyone's control after the offense was made. Also a child is not a consequence.