Former coach of the year fired from Christian school for out-of-wedlock pregnancy

[preachinjesus]

I think gb is just looking for a fight...

That said two thoughts:

1. If she was on ministry staff at your local church (as a ministry assistant, or ministry director, or pastor) and this happened what would your reaction be?

2. The school should, in dismissing her, offer an opportunity for mentoring, discipleship, and accountability. Obviously, in reading her thoughts on "interpretations" she hasn't had much. She should also be given the grace of the rest of the academic years contract and insurance benefits.


To add: We had something like this happen at the last church I served. One of the guys leading a worship team went out and got a girl pregnant and was sleeping with several others. When we confronted him, and dismissed him on these grounds, he looked at us and said, "Well someone should have told me you guys have a problem with sex before marriage." Believe it or not, but the rising Millennial generation is highly biblically and theologically illiterate generation in a long time. They don't know what the Bible says and don't care to go look it up. Their views on these matters, pre-marital relations, are informed by society not biblical theology. We shouldn't be surprised when this happens. But when it does we need to provide a means of care and grace that surpasses all expectation.

 

[righteousdude2]

I Agree....

There was a contract that she signed (the moral clause) and she violated that contract. End of story, IMO.

....when I was accepted in the university that I went on to receive my degree with, I signed an enrollment agreement, and one of the clauses was a moral's clause.

Had I broken the clause [my promise to live up to what the university expected of their students] I would have been asked to leave, and morally I would have had no reason to complain.

This is life, and that coach knew what she was doing on both ends of the clause, and she sinned, in their eyes...

I agree, "End of story!"

 

[webdog]

She signed a contract.
She violated the contract.
She suffered the consequences.

End of story.

 

[annsni]

Titus 1:6.

I don't see that the passage is saying that the children are saved but that they are steadfast/faithful. I don't know that the original languages are speaking of salvation.

If a man is not making disciples now under a pastor in a church where he can be helped then how would he have proven himself before leading a church where he is the main leader and expected to teach others as Jesus did. I think that is the main reason why we have so much trouble in churches today and so many men are not equipped to lead well. I was fortunate in that for a few years I was under a pastor who made disciples and he guided me even though I had done it for awhile with students.

I know a church that practices discipleship in action all through the years. The older mentor the younger. The older being about 70. A number of people have been to a Bible school for the sole purpose of being better equipped.

I think that's awesome. I watched our men go through their training for their ordination - over three years. It was great to watch them being mentored, taught, guided, chided and just to see them grow. They are some amazing pastors now because they grew through the trenches.

 

[Baptist Believer]

When I was in seminary a young lady repented publicly that she was having sex with her fiance who was studying to be a pastor. Neither of them were asked to leave the school.

Was this during the one-day "revival" of 1995 at SWBTS when people were lining up to the microphones to publicly repent of sins (many trying to "top" the previously confessed sins)?

She repented but the lady in the story cannot undue her pregnancy.

Actually, she could have had an abortion and no one would have been the wiser, except for God. She could have avoided all of the trouble and scandal, but she had the audacity to allow the child to live and expose her guilt.

Is there any real difference between the two stories?

Both participated in sexual immorality. One was faced with a pregnancy and the choice of whether or not to allow her child to live.

But the former teacher should have known that sexual relations before marriage were considered wrong by the school and it would violate the morals clause. Churches and religious institutions have the legal and moral right to hold those standards over their employees. She has no legal basis to complain or challenge their decision.

If we strongly ostracize giving birth out of wedlock we run the real risk of causing more abortions.

Yes, absolutely. This is something of a pet peeve of mine.

I have a friend who became pregnant by her louse of a boyfriend. She had a seizure (she's epileptic) and he used that opportunity to have sex with her since she had not previously given into his pressures. She became pregnant from the rape (yes, it was rape) and wouldn't even consider abortion since she is ardently pro-life (she herself was adopted from a teen who was pregnant out of wedlock in the mid-1960s). Unfortunately, she didn't press charges against the boyfriend, she is WAY too forgiving.

Predictably, she received nothing but condemnation from Christians who condemned her for her "immorality" and it drove her away from church for a number of years. She is still scorned by some of the more religious members and treated like a second-class Christian more than 20 years later.

The Churches around here tend to support the unwed mother and encourage her so that sin is not compounded further through abortion. I think that is a good thing.

I do to.

I understand the struggle (if there is a struggle) for the school, but at the same time they could be modeling redemption for the teacher in some way.

In a church setting, I have been a part of helping unwed pregnant teens and teen mothers get what they need to support their children. It would also be worthwhile to get members of the youth group involved in ministering their their peers who are in that situation. It's not a glamourous way for a teen to live and I believe it is much more of an inducement to avoid pre-marital sexual relations than any sermon or Bible study could be.

 

[annsni]

Bottom line is that the goal is restoration. If one of our staff members ended up as this girl did, they would be removed from their position but quietly. They would also most likely be offered for us to continue their insurance until after the child was born and we would require mom to have counseling. She could choose to agree to this or not - her choice. But she could not continue as an employee of the church because of the contract that was signed (yes, we also have a contract) but she could still attend the church.

Now, if she basically thumbed her nose at us and said "to heck with you", then we would deal with it a little more harshly.

That said, we've had numerous key families with children who have fallen into this situation and in each case, I believe it's been dealt with well. Not condemnation but counsel and dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

 

[gb93433]

I don't see that the passage is saying that the children are saved but that they are steadfast/faithful. I don't know that the original languages are speaking of salvation.

". . . having children who believe, . . ." (NASU95) That is added to 1 Tim. 3:4.

I think that's awesome. I watched our men go through their training for their ordination - over three years. It was great to watch them being mentored, taught, guided, chided and just to see them grow. They are some amazing pastors now because they grew through the trenches.

Isn't that what an elder is and not just someone who has gone to seminary and graduated then go onto a pastorate. I was shocked when I was in seminary at how little ministry if any some of the students had in the church they came from. I remember in a class I took that one of the ladies whose dad was a deacon in her home church shared with the class that she had never given her testimony.

 

[gb93433]

Was this during the one-day "revival" of 1995 at SWBTS when people were lining up to the microphones to publicly repent of sins (many trying to "top" the previously confessed sins)?

I believe that was the time.

I have a friend who became pregnant by her louse of a boyfriend. She had a seizure (she's epileptic) and he used that opportunity to have sex with her since she had not previously given into his pressures. She became pregnant from the rape (yes, it was rape) and wouldn't even consider abortion since she is ardently pro-life (she herself was adopted from a teen who was pregnant out of wedlock in the mid-1960s). Unfortunately, she didn't press charges against the boyfriend, she is WAY too forgiving.

Predictably, she received nothing but condemnation from Christians who condemned her for her "immorality" and it drove her away from church for a number of years. She is still scorned by some of the more religious members and treated like a second-class Christian more than 20 years later.

That is sad. I wonder what he is like now. When I taught at the university and was in business I wished that more Christians could have seen and heard what I did. It would make people think several times about who they bring on as leaders.

I understand the struggle (if there is a struggle) for the school, but at the same time they could be modeling redemption for the teacher in some way.

That is what I struggle with. Obviously what she did was wrong unless she is covering for a man who took advantage of her.

Do you have any thoughts what might be best for the lady in terms of restoring her?

In a church setting, I have been a part of helping unwed pregnant teens and teen mothers get what they need to support their children. It would also be worthwhile to get members of the youth group involved in ministering their their peers who are in that situation. It's not a glamourous way for a teen to live and I believe it is much more of an inducement to avoid pre-marital sexual relations than any sermon or Bible study could be.

What is so sad is that some young girls glamorize it. They want a baby to "love."

I was amazed at what I saw when I taught high school in the conversations I had with students who asked real questions. I was amazed at how well they listened to me as a Christian. I am an adult that stood for what is right and they needed to hear those things from their leaders. The problem is that too many church leaders and secular authorities are afraid to tell kids what they need to hear. A kid needs to be told right from wrong. They need to be told when they are overweight and helped to get it under control before it gets too bad and their health is damaged permanently.

We recognize the value of 2 Tim. 3:16 but do we recognize the value of wisdom in correction and encouragement.

A few years ago I had a discussion with a woman whose daughter was dating. Her attitude was that should her daughter get married she could also get divorced "if things did not work out." She is a Sunday School teacher. I think we would be amazed at what people actually think in conservative churches.

 

[Arbo]

As I see it the question is if an individual in a leadership/mentoring position over teenagers (who are at the age when the hormones are afire enough as it is) should be allowed to keep her position after showing poor judgement by engaging in immortality.

Most Christian schools that I know of have some type of morality standard. Assuming this one does and she violated it, it's a no-briner. She should be let go.

The priority should be the kids, not her. Were she allowed to remain, the perception would be one of endorsement of her actions and morality.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The purpose of this school is to teach/minister to/ educate the CHILDREN, not to supply this woman with a job. The school is there for the kids, not the teachers. She sinned (probability would suggest repeatedly, unless we are to think that this was a one-time deal and she had some sheer bad luck) rendering herself a bad example of Christian conduct. Her contract said that she could not do so. She broke said contract. Her sin was fun for a season, now she is fired......fine. She made her choices, she deals with the consequences. The thing that says the most about her character rather than the pregnancy is her lawsuit against the school, this is NOT a repentant woman IMAO (in my arrogant opinion)

 

[gb93433]

The purpose of this school is to teach/minister to/ educate the CHILDREN, not to supply this woman with a job. The school is there for the kids, not the teachers. She sinned (probability would suggest repeatedly, unless we are to think that this was a one-time deal and she had some sheer bad luck) rendering herself a bad example of Christian conduct. Her contract said that she could not do so. She broke said contract. Her sin was fun for a season, now she is fired......fine. She made her choices, she deals with the consequences. The thing that says the most about her character rather than the pregnancy is her lawsuit against the school, this is NOT a repentant woman IMAO (in my arrogant opinion)

I agree with you 100%. We can go down the list of rights and wrongs but the question is how should the school and I assume her church deal with her? Suppose she told the entire school that what she did was wrong it will not change the situation. I would think that if she repented openly that the greater good would be served.

When I was in high school and students were drinking, I saw drunks whose lives were ruined and men and women looked old but were not very old. They were living in shacks and did not work. I determined at that time I would never drink. No amount of words written on a page could have told me like the image I have today from my freshman year in high school.

I am sure most everyone knows a pastor who has a child who got pregnant and was not married. I personally know a pastor who has a child who had a child in high school before she was married. He and his wife recently celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary. At the party his daughter (who is now married and had came from another state) stood up and told of how she had gone the wrong way and how that impacted the entire family. She expressed thankfulness for her parents because they raised their granddaughter so she could go to college. At the time the church family stood by their pastor and his family. He is one of the most respected pastors in the city not only by his church but by other pastors and non-Christians as well. That child is now married and has a family of her own. Her grandfather speaks well of her and the home her and her husband have.

 

[annsni]

". . . having children who believe, . . ." (NASU95) That is added to 1 Tim. 3:4.

Yes, but Young's uses "steadfast" and the KJV uses "faithful" so I wonder what the original language means. I need to run out to work so I don't have time to look it up.

 

[gb93433]

Yes, but Young's uses "steadfast" and the KJV uses "faithful" so I wonder what the original language means. I need to run out to work so I don't have time to look it up.

How can one be faithful if they are not full of faith? The word used for believe is an adjective. While little children may not believe the truth will come out later.

When a man comes as pastor from within the same congregation it is a great situation because he is already recognized and proven himself as a leader and not whimsical person who needs to succeed. When a man has proven himself over a long period of time he has the respect he needs to do his job well. If someone comes against him the people already his character and what he is like in the community too.

 

[Ed B]

The purpose of this school is to teach/minister to/ educate the CHILDREN, not to supply this woman with a job. The school is there for the kids, not the teachers. She sinned (probability would suggest repeatedly, unless we are to think that this was a one-time deal and she had some sheer bad luck) rendering herself a bad example of Christian conduct. Her contract said that she could not do so. She broke said contract. Her sin was fun for a season, now she is fired......fine. She made her choices, she deals with the consequences. The thing that says the most about her character rather than the pregnancy is her lawsuit against the school, this is NOT a repentant woman IMAO (in my arrogant opinion)

I don't disagree with you. However, setting aside this particular person and using this as a case study, I think this situation provided an opportunity for the school to make two or more strong statements.


First, she could have been relieved of her duties as coach/teacher because of her public sin and breach of contract. Second, in show of support for the child and in extending grace and reconciliation to the woman she could have been offered another support type position - not a mentoring/leadership position - while she is counseled, repents and eventually restored if her subsequent actions indicate repentance. In doing so the school leadership and the teacher recognizes the sin for what it is and makes a statement that grace and reconciliation has a place in Christian institution and they will support a woman who is one of their own, who chooses to have the baby rather than erase the shame or inconvenience through abortion. As other mentioned in local church context, health care is still provided for the mother and child with some income is still provided in exchange for services she provides in another position. If it becomes clear that the mother is unrepentant then she was a bad hire to begin with for a Christian school and her contract is not renewed for the succeeding school year.


It is possible that the school offered something like this and she declined. I don’t know.

 

[Baptist Believer]

The purpose of this school is to teach/minister to/ educate the CHILDREN, not to supply this woman with a job. The school is there for the kids, not the teachers.

I agree with these statements.

However, the school is demonstrating "law" to the students by their actions. That's not a bad thing. But I think it is also important for the school to demonstrate "grace" and "redemption" to the students, FOR THE BENEFIT of the students, as well as this woman and her child.

There's no shortage of institutions, especially religious institutions, demonstrating law to young people. There's a tremendous shortage of institutions, especially religious institutions, demonstrating grace and redemption.

I don't know any details other than what has been reported on the news (who knows how accurate that is?), but this is certainly was an opportunity to demonstrate grace and redemption. Unfortunately, now that it has hit the news, I doubt the school would feel like it has the freedom to exercise grace for fear of looking like they are caving in to public opinion.

 

[quantumfaith]

The idea of Mt. 18 is restoration of the sinner. How does what the school did to terminate her contract apply? Let's say that she went to another city and had an abortion then her public image would not have been tainted and the school would not have known.

How do you restore someone who is pregnant? Make them un-pregnant? A pregnancy is an obvious statement to all. If she were to say publicly that what she did was wrong would that not make a louder statement to young people than trying to hide her from the students?

When I was in seminary a young lady repented publicly that she was having sex with her fiance who was studying to be a pastor. Neither of them were asked to leave the school. She repented but the lady in the story cannot undue her pregnancy. Is there any real difference between the two stories?

My question would be: how is she any different than the woman caught in adultery and how is the school any different than the Pharisees?

I personally know a man who was a pastor whose wife cheated in him. He gave the church his resignation and they refused. I have never seen such a changed man. They asked him to step down as pastor and get counseling for as long as he needed. They told him that they needed him when he came but now he needs them. The public in the city heard about it and came flocking to the church. The church doubled practically overnight.

We serve both a righteous and merciful God. If God created just a merciful society then we would be a place where sin is rampant. If He created a society run by justice then not one of us would measure up. There is the fine line we walk. If we were to do as the OT law suggests we would condemn her to death. Nobody seems to be suggesting that. Why not?

If I were to have made public the things I knew about a number of leaders in every church I pastored except one, most of the leaders would be asked to leave.

For example how many pastors would need to leave the pulpit because not all of their children are believers if justice were practiced? Yet, is that practiced today in churches?

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[saturneptune]

She signed a contract.
She violated the contract.
She suffered the consequences.

End of story.

I totally agree with you. It is a matter of a condition of employment.

From a Biblical standpoint, from my experience with these types of situations, two observations.
1. My guess is the people enforcing the rule in the contract are engaged in a sin as bad if not worse.

2. I do not think that this type of situation should ban a person from a teaching or leadership position for life. Many on this board think of this as one of those things that can be spiritually forgiven, but something a person should never be allowed to return to. I think a return to the occupation should be based on restoration to Biblical principles.

Again, this is one of those sins, like drinking, etc, that we jump on with penalties, but tend to give a wink and a nod to the gossip, and the four hundred pound glutton.

 

[fortytworc]

Many pastors children today are not all believers. Why is their dismissal not practiced today? I think there is a reason why a pastor is called an elder in scripture and they came from within their respective congregations. They were already proven. How many pastors who come from a seminary are already making disciples and have already proven themselves? My guess is less than 5%.

If she had not signed that contract she would have a case. As it stands (this assumes the news media have done a fair, accurate, and complete job in reporting this story)[Fat Chance!!!] her best bet is to find out if this discipline has been dished out fairly, equally, and consistently over previous years. Here we may have yet another example of one possible way a 'sheep gone to the wayside ' gets there. Then Jesus will leave the 99 to go bring the wayside sheep back.How many school officials and teachers there still have a job simply because they did not get caught? I'm not excusing her behavior. I am saying we should deal with this type of situation carefully. With meekness lest we also fall.

 

[fortytworc]

I think gb is just looking for a fight...

That said two thoughts:

1. If she was on ministry staff at your local church (as a ministry assistant, or ministry director, or pastor) and this happened what would your reaction be?

2. The school should, in dismissing her, offer an opportunity for mentoring, discipleship, and accountability. Obviously, in reading her thoughts on "interpretations" she hasn't had much. She should also be given the grace of the rest of the academic years contract and insurance benefits.


To add: We had something like this happen at the last church I served. One of the guys leading a worship team went out and got a girl pregnant and was sleeping with several others. When we confronted him, and dismissed him on these grounds, he looked at us and said, "Well someone should have told me you guys have a problem with sex before marriage." Believe it or not, but the rising Millennial generation is highly biblically and theologically illiterate generation in a long time. They don't know what the Bible says and don't care to go look it up. Their views on these matters, pre-marital relations, are informed by society not biblical theology. We shouldn't be surprised when this happens. But when it does we need to provide a means of care and grace that surpasses all expectation.

In this area pertaining to sexual matters the church historically has always failed the young by :
1.) Ignoring the whole subject. We tend to deny the sexuality of our children and pretend that they don't have any physical 'urges' about sex. This leaves their sex education in the hands of people who do not have a biblical base on morality. That is how the public school system was able to take it over. Parents were not taking responsibility.
2.)When it is addressed in Churches and 'Christian' households their is little, if any discussion. "This is what God says! You are to obey His commands! Period!!!
3.)These approaches help us parents to give the impression that we do not have, never have had, and hope to God we never will have any of those sinful almost demonic sexual urges, or temptations even toward our spouse.

 

[preacher4truth]

I think gb is just looking for a fight...

That said two thoughts:

1. If she was on ministry staff at your local church (as a ministry assistant, or ministry director, or pastor) and this happened what would your reaction be?

2. The school should, in dismissing her, offer an opportunity for mentoring, discipleship, and accountability. Obviously, in reading her thoughts on "interpretations" she hasn't had much. She should also be given the grace of the rest of the academic years contract and insurance benefits.


To add: We had something like this happen at the last church I served. One of the guys leading a worship team went out and got a girl pregnant and was sleeping with several others. When we confronted him, and dismissed him on these grounds, he looked at us and said, "Well someone should have told me you guys have a problem with sex before marriage." Believe it or not, but the rising Millennial generation is highly biblically and theologically illiterate generation in a long time. They don't know what the Bible says and don't care to go look it up. Their views on these matters, pre-marital relations, are informed by society not biblical theology. We shouldn't be surprised when this happens. But when it does we need to provide a means of care and grace that surpasses all expectation.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Baloney.

There is no way this 'guy' didn't know sleeping around wasn't wrong, nor do I buy his story that he didn't know sex outside of marriage was wrong. Wonder if he knew lying was wrong, or any other commandments?

That's a lame copout. Sounds like he played you all just like he played those girls and you bit, and believed it. :wavey: