I think you're considering the acts as chronological. The Ordo Salutis is a conceptual description of conversion and regeneration, not a chronological account. Conversion and regeneration occur, as we experience it, as simultaneous,
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Four questions for Calvinists.
- Thread starter glad4mercy
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I think you're considering the acts as chronological. The Ordo Salutis is a conceptual description of conversion and regeneration, not a chronological account. Conversion and regeneration occur, as we experience it, as simultaneous,
glad4mercy
Active Member
I understand that. But that does not change the facts
a. We receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith.
b. We are not regenerate until we receive the Spirit
c. Therefore, we are regenerated through the hearing of faith
Remember also that Paul said that we are saved from faith to faith. So there is initial faith and there is a continuance in faith.
glad4mercy
Active Member
saying that faith is a result of regeneration is kind of like saying that hearing the Gospel is a result of regeneration.
I think you focus too much focus on reasons and limits for people not to have the spirit.
Luke 1
41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43“And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? 44“For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.
All Mary had to do is say "HI".
And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
We see with Jesus and Stephen mercy directed to people who are direct enemies, for anyone to receive any desire of mercy is itself a grace. There is no qualification for it.
Paul was hunting down Christians, he's already far along to rejecting he says he was in blasphemy.
But Jesus intervenes.
In his own testimony he not only is disqualified he considered part of the reason he was saved so undeserving was to express just how great the patience and mercy of God was.
1 timothy 1
13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
Its his actually being evil and ignorant which motivates grace to show up.
Romans 5
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Of course that doesn't mean go be evil and ignorant so grace of God shows up.
Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Doctor is for the sick.
Same time its not just a Chain-Letter gospel, Its not something preached only on the sake of being preached.
Romans 2
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
James 2
22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. 27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
The only way to preach the whole gospel is to do it. Saying it is just half the gospel.
glad4mercy
Active Member
a. Of course people were empowered by the Spirit in the OT to prophesy and do other things, but that is not the same as regeneration.
as to the rest, I agree with you on all points in this post, but the points (while being good points) are not really relevant to the questions asked.
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I can't but see the logical order as also chronological when comprised of events leading to or resulting in other things. If one is necessary before another, calling it a "logical order" of things does not resolve the fact that one truth is dependent on the other to occur before it can happen.
That is why I say that I believe conversion is not a process. Those aspects are descriptive and interdependent. But if we reject this interdependence and must view conversion as a process, then we have to admit that biblical regeneration (the "washing of regeneration") cannot occur without faith. If we view Titus 3 as an order, then the Spirit's work is done after this washing (although I believe the passage to indicate this as one act of the Spirit - "washing of regeneration" and "renewing" along the lines of being "born of water and spirit" and Ezekiel 36) which would mean the presence of the Spirit before regeneration.
Glad4Mercy's "order" cannot be said to be unbiblical because it directly from Scripture. I don't reject that those things are dependent on each other (remove one and the whole thing falls apart). I disagree that those things form an order in terms of a process...that one thing leads to another. And therefore I also disagree that regeneration (this "washing" or "renewal") must occur so that a person can be brought to faith.
To me, what is being argued is akin to "what comes first, repentance or belief?"...that is, what comes first, turning from your sinfulness or turning to God. We can look at it either way, but in the end turning from is also turning to.
If they aren't relevant then they bad points. They are very relevant however. Because we are not limited to the "hearing of faith".
GOOD SEMARITIN would be another good example.
The Pharisees rather call him the Damned Samaritan.
Instantaneous regeneration is a joke.
A good faith can move mountains folks yet "fully regenerated" faith can barely move mouse pointers.
glad4mercy
Active Member
Very good. My point exactly.
quote- That is why I say that I believe conversion is not a process.
AMEN!
quote- But if we reject this interdependence and must view conversion as a process, then we have to admit that biblical regeneration (the "washing of regeneration") cannot occur without faith.
I am not saying it is a process. Conversion happens instantaneously in a believing heart. But there is a drawing that takes place first, and this drawing is not synonomous with regeneration (IMHO), at least the Bible nowhere equates the drawing of God with the regeneration of God.
God draws unbelievers. He regenerates those who have been drawn and have believed.
I believe drawing is pre-conversion. But conversion itself is not a process. It is instantaneous.
quote- Glad4Mercy's "order" cannot be said to be unbiblical because it directly from Scripture.
Thank you. I appreciate you saying that.
quote- . I don't reject that those things are dependent on each other (remove one and the whole thing falls apart). I disagree that those things form an order in terms of a process...that one thing leads to another. And therefore I also disagree that regeneration (this "washing" or "renewal") must occur so that a person can be brought to faith.
Agreed. What must occur for faith and regeneration to occur is the "drawing".
quote- To me, what is being argued is akin to "what comes first, repentance or belief?
Saving faith includes repentance, IMHO.
quote- ...that is, what comes first, turning from your sinfulness or turning to God. We can look at it either way, but in the end turning from is also turning to.
Amen. Fully agree.
glad4mercy
Active Member
As to the first statement, are you saying a person can be converted without hearing the gospel and without faith. I would strongly disagree.
quote- GOOD SEMARITIN would be another good example.
That parable is about who we are to love in the commandment to love your neighbor.
Quote- Instantaneous regeneration is a joke.
Are you saying you think regeneration is a process? If so, then I think it would follow that justification is a process as well, and I do not accept that premise.
I’ve had a chance to look at that other thread, and I agree that our “part” in salvation is to believe. I think that this is what Paul was pointing to when he spoke of Abraham’s faith and Jesus pointed to when the woman touched His garment. I also believe (as you have confirmed) that this faith is a work of God in our lives. God draws us, works in us (whether in a moment or over decades), otherwise we would not come.
When I speak of faith in terms of conversion, I tend to think only of an established belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior. I don’t think that this faith can exist apart from the presence of the Holy Spirit. I am not trying to argue that God’s work towards a saving faith (this drawing) is post-regeneration (as many Calvinists hold….perhaps by redefining “regeneration”), but am instead looking at this as pre-conversion, pre-regeneration, pre-indwelling of the Spirit (I think we agree so far). But I also consider this drawing of God to be pre-belief. Once someone believes (repents and believes) I think that they are found to be washed by regeneration, renewed by the Spirit and in Christ…not because of that faith but through that faith. It’s like cable services….it comes in a bundle
. I do not believe in evolution. I believe that God, by His Word, "spoke" creation into existence. I think that He does the same when He re-creates man. To quote Emeril, "Bam!", and it was done.Actually, I think that we agree pretty much as a whole. The "Calvinism" that you are addressing is a specific view within Calvinistic belief, and it one that I have not bought. I believe that some have taken analogy too far and developed a process of salvation where the spiritual corpse must be made alive so that it can be saved (ignoring that this life itself is salvation).
God can do anything He wants (Psalm 135:6), but His usual way of salvation is by the hearing of the word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23).
No.
It is God Himself who gives the Spirit (Matthew 16:7; Acts 16:14).
No.
Because both faith and the Holy Spirit are gifts of God.
No so. Regeneration is necessary for the hearing of faith. (Matthew 13:9; 1 Corinthians 2:14).
I think you'll find it is, in the way you are presenting it.
I think that those who believe that regeneration is a one-off instantaneous affair will always have a problem sorting out these matters. It is much better IMHO to see the New Birth, like a natural birth, as being a process which begins with effectual calling and ends with repentance and faith.
I have tried to work this out in a blog post which may be read here:
https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2010/08/15/new-birth-7-the-order-of-the-new-birth/
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We might encounter someone thrashing about attacking people.
Turns out his blood sugar is low, he is a diabetic, Between us He is innocent. JUSTIFIED.
He is innocent in every way JUSTIFIED.
Just cause we know he is innocent is he alright?
Is he ok though? no he screaming, worst then a drunk.
We get him a coke and some candy, he needs sugar. After a while he's ok.......REGENERATED.
You were JUSTIFIED at the cross. The mercy and innocence was all decided at the cross.
Romans 5
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
It doesn't say you were regenerated "while we were yet sinners".
Carefully read verse 9. NOW been justified, "we shall be saved" Instead of "we HAVE BEEN saved"
Now the GOOD SAMARITIN is Jesus' example of AGAPE of NEIGHBOR.
We don't know the religion of victim, and obviously the Samaritan is not a Christian(at least to the standard of some folks)
You said the point is who are "WE" to love. Who is "WE"?.....this teaching was directed to a PHARISEE lawyer.
The point of this message is capability to do God's will outside of religion. The first 2 were of same religion and did nothing.
"As to the first statement, are you saying a person can be converted without hearing the gospel and without faith. I would strongly disagree."
Paul is perfect example. Show me where he heard the gospel, had Faith, THEN received the merciful intervention from God.
No. He got saved, WHILE hunting down Christians.
Acts 9
1Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, 2and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; 4and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,
Look real close. NO faith, NO gospel. and he's already calling JESUS LORD!
BEFORE he even knows who he is!
This is perfect proof. No faith, No gospel, No works. Completely disqualified, Plenty of folks would say Paul does not deserve any of this.
We can definitely find someone JUST LIKE PAUL TODAY. Imagine a terrorist. You think he deserves to be saved?
1. No.
2. No.
3. Faith.
4. No.
5. Trick question - we don't "receive regeneration".
How'd I do (is there an answer key to check our work)?
!1 also a "trick question:, as those whom God intended the Cross to save will end up getting saved, and they still need to hear the Gospel and believe on HIm...
glad4mercy
Active Member
quote-
Galatians 3:2)
It is God Himself who gives the Spirit (Matthew 16:7; Acts 16:14).
Agreed. But you are ignoring what Galatians 3:2 says.
quote- I think you'll find it is, in the way you are presenting it.
False, because I have said REPEATEDLY that God ALONE regenerates. That means regeneration is monergistic.
Did you read my sig? It describes a monergistic regeneration and was written by John Wesley. Check it out.
I don't know why you keep speaking false words about people.
quote- It is much better IMHO to see the New Birth, like a natural birth, as being a process which begins with effectual calling and ends with repentance and faith.
Close.
a. Effectual calling (drawn)
b. Repentance and faith.
c. Regeneration
Because Galatians 3:2 says that we are regenerated BY THE HEARING OF FAITH. SO it is being drawn of God followed by God granted faith and repentance followed by MONERGISTIC REGENERATION as described in my SIG.
glad4mercy
Active Member
Where does the Bible say that everyone whom Christ died for will be saved? Book, chapter, verse please. I believe that this assertion is an EXTRAPOLATION, and not based on SOLA SCRIPTURA.
Prove me wrong with SCRIPTURES, and I will accept the premise.
glad4mercy
Active Member
I’ve had a chance to look at that other thread, and I agree that our “part” in salvation is to believe. I think that this is what Paul was pointing to when he spoke of Abraham’s faith and Jesus pointed to when the woman touched His garment. I also believe (as you have confirmed) that this faith is a work of God in our lives. God draws us, works in us (whether in a moment or over decades), otherwise we would not come.
When I speak of faith in terms of conversion, I tend to think only of an established belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior. I don’t think that this faith can exist apart from the presence of the Holy Spirit. I am not trying to argue that God’s work towards a saving faith (this drawing) is post-regeneration (as many Calvinists hold….perhaps by redefining “regeneration”), but am instead looking at this as pre-conversion, pre-regeneration, pre-indwelling of the Spirit (I think we agree so far). But I also consider this drawing of God to be pre-belief. Once someone believes (repents and believes) I think that they are found to be washed by regeneration, renewed by the Spirit and in Christ…not because of that faith but through that faith. It’s like cable services….it comes in a bundle
Actually, I think that we agree pretty much as a whole. The "Calvinism" that you are addressing is a specific view within Calvinistic belief, and it one that I have not bought. I believe that some have taken analogy too far and developed a process of salvation where the spiritual corpse must be made alive so that it can be saved (ignoring that this life itself is salvation).
I agree with everything, just one point of clarification.
You said being drawn of God was pre conversion, pre-regeneration, pre indwelt with the Spirit right? I agree with this.
Drawing comes first. Producing faith in those who believe. Resulting in similtaneous conversion, regeneration, indwelling of the Spirit,
Gal. 3:2. 'This only I want to learn from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith.' What this text cannot mean is that unregenerate Galatians heard, responded savingly to the Gospel, and then received the Spirit. That would contradict 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:4-10. Some commentators are of the opinion that Gal. 3:2 is referring to the 'Sign Gifts' which were about in those early days. God must give us eyes to see and ears to hear before we can come to faith in Christ (cf. Deuteronomy 29:4; Matthew 11:15 etc.).
My friend, I've tried several times to explain this to you. Yes, it is God alone who regenerates. But under your system, and that of Wesley, Man, as it were, holds an armlock on God and He cannot regenerate unless Man cooperates by not resisting His grace. That is Synergism. I am well acquainted with your Wesley quote, but it does not actually mention Monergism or Synergism. A very helpful book on this subject is John Wesley: in the Reformation Tradition by Roland Burrows (Tentmaker Productions. ISBN 978-1-901670-88-2). It explains his views in great depth. I have much admiration for Wesley; he did an amazing work in Britain and was used by God in the salvation of thousands, but alas, it was flawed in various ways, and the baneful results may be seen to this day.
'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him' (John 6:44). God must give life to the dead before they can hear the Gospel.
We agree closely enough. Our "disagreement" here is minute enough not to be a cause of contention nor a matter in need of hashing out. We agree that "drawing" is not "regeneration" and that the "logical order" of regeneration and then faith is not without issues.
A man is never said to be saved.....because of faith....
He is saved..... by, or though faith....never....because of faith.
It happens at one point in time....a person can be convicted and drawn for awhile....but when the Spirit quickens him, it is game over.
A lost sheep lives as a lost person, until Jesus seeks and saves him.
EZK34..... For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
Now maybe we're getting somewhere. But what is "the hearing of faith"? That's not a term I'm familiar with and can't define. I would prefer to call it the impartation of faith or the gift of faith or the creation of faith. It is God's work. Whether you want to consider that faith precedes regeneration or vice versa, the ultimate truth that it is all the work of God and we have nothing to do with it. Logically, it seems that regeneration must precede faith; in fact they are simultaneous.
Of course there is, because salvation encompasses more than justification; and it includes both temporal and eternal aspects. We have been saved (justification), we are being saved (sanctification) and someday we shall be saved (glorification). No one disagrees with that.
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