Free choice to choose...

[skypair]

AresMan; can you tell me why He chose you and didn't chose someone else. What is there about you that caused God to plant the light of the Gospel in your heart?

Job 32:8 "But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding."

Ares can't tell you. Nor can PL, jc, pinoy, ... not any of them. They would have to say "luck."

This is what I find so destructive -- Arminians say you can lose your salvation but Calvinists can't ever say the KNOW they are saved (They THINK they are but it was Calvin that said that one of the most devastating devices of Satan is making a man THINK he is saved who isn't.). So what's the diff??

skypair

Here's Calvin quoted: "There is scarcely a mind in which the thought does not sometimes rise, 'Whence comes your salvation but from the election of God? But what proof have you of your election?' When once this thought has taken possession of any individual, it keeps him perpetually miserable, subjects him to dire torment, or throws him into a state of complete stupor ... Therefore, as we dread shipwreck, we must avoid this rock, which is fatal to everyone who strikes upon it..." (Institutes of the Christian Religion III.xxiv,4)

"Among the temptations with which Satan assaults believers, none is greater nor more perilous, than when disquieting them with doubts as to their election, he at the same time stimulates them with a depraved desire of inquiring after it out of the proper way ... I mean when puny man endeavors to pentrate to the hidden recesses of the divine wisdom ... in order that he may understand what final determination God has made with regard to him." (ibid.)

 

[npetreley]

For now, I can tell you that not for one minute can you convince me that God created Adam for the sole purpose of having Adam sin so that He can glory in His goodness.

I would not say, "sole purpose of having Adam sin" or "So He can glory in His goodness", but how can anyone deny that it was God's intent that Adam would sin? I think there's more to it than this, but let me approach this the same way we approach every other event in history. The same rules apply. If God foreknows all things, then alll things God foreknows are foreordained to come to pass, and could not happen any other way. God could not have been "surprised" by Adam's sin, therefore God must have foreordained it to happen.

Like I said, I think there's more to it than that, but even if we stop right there, it's impossible to deny that God meant it to be.

Now consider also that God cannot reveal many aspects of His nature without the existence of sin. For example, how can God demonstrate His righteous wrath to the objects of His mercy if there are no objects of His wrath?

 

[npetreley]

"Among the temptations with which Satan assaults believers, none is greater nor more perilous, than when disquieting them with doubts as to their election" (ibid.)

I find it fascinating that you would quote this after challenging people to explain how they are sure they are among the elect. Maybe you should think about who you are serving by doing so.

 

[Brother Bob]

Like I said, I think there's more to it than that, but even if we stop right there, it's impossible to deny that God meant it to be.

Therefore, you are saying, God is the author of sin!

 

[pinoybaptist]

If God foreknows all things, then alll things God foreknows are foreordained to come to pass, and could not happen any other way. God could not have been "surprised" by Adam's sin, therefore God must have foreordained it to happen.

You see, I really have a problem with this, brother.
Even among my own people, the Primitive Baptists, I have met some who thought this way.

I think this is one of those things where we will go around and around in circles like dogs chasing their tails simply because none of us have been provided the answer by God in Scripture.

The obvious is what you implied, but the obvious is not always what is Scripturally correct, and the obvious you pointed out leads to the conclusion that Brother Bob points out: God authored sin.

Now, tell us, do you yourself honestly believe that ?

I don't.

Many years ago I was searching for truth in my religion dominated society and I joined this cult that teaches Christ is simply human, albeit special. I could not explain it then, but my heart and soul rebelled against that teaching, because I know Jesus Christ is God. How do I know ? I just know. As a child my grandmother would take me to this church where they had a wooden Nazarene laying in an open glass coffin, and people would be lining up to wipe the feet of that wooden statue and kiss it, and I would not. That at the age of 10. Why ? Because I know that wasn't Christ.

I know God cannot have been the author of sin, so that He can be the author of Grace. It just doesn't add up. How do I know ? I just know.

Ooopss. Break time over.
Catcha later.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Ares can't tell you. Nor can PL, jc, pinoy, ... not any of them. They would have to say "luck."

I did tell you. Why are you so dishonest time and time again? I told you the reason is God's gracious choice. that is the reason God gives. Why do you need another another? And why do you tell people we can't tell you when in fact we have told you?

This is what I find so destructive -- Arminians say you can lose your salvation but Calvinists can't ever say the KNOW they are saved

Again, more dishonesty. Have you no shame? We believe you can know you are saved. The Bible tells us we can konw.

 

[skypair]

I find it fascinating that you would quote this after challenging people to explain how they are sure they are among the elect. Maybe you should think about who you are serving by doing so.

Huh? Remember, it is CALVIN that said Satan assaulted believers with this question -- but Calvin had a motive.

Calvin would have you believe that those who ask you work for Satan. What better way to ward off the notion that you should know but don't know if you are saved. That is the whole purpose of Calvin's rant that I just quoted!

Bit notice -- he also says the knowledge of whether you are saved is the "hidden wisdom" of God. That you are not to inquire into it at the risk of "shipwrecking" your soul! Yet 1John 5:13 says, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,..." You CAN know -- it is NOT "hidden wisdom" -- if you DON'T know, you may, indeed, NOT have it -- and that wouldn't serve Calvin's theology very well, would it.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I did tell you. Why are you so dishonest time and time again? I told you the reason is God's gracious choice. that is the reason God gives. Why do you need another another? And why do you tell people we can't tell you when in fact we have told you?

Why me dishonest? Because IF you stick to your Calvinist theology, you are left with no answer. Per my quotation of Calvin, you are not even allowed to ask that question. So, do you want to be a Calvinist -- or would you rather admit that you believed on Christ unto salvation and were regenerated afterward?

As I just tried to tell you, you can't be regenerated/sanctified by the Spirit until you are first justified by God in your soul. How in the world do you expect the Holy Spirit to come in "rebirthing" you before you ever believe in God/Christ??? And if you already believe you are regenerated "by grace," then how did God regenerate you without Christ??

Again, more dishonesty. Have you no shame? We believe you can know you are saved. The Bible tells us we can konw.

And you believe that in same the 1John manner that I do. You believe, IOW, that the Spirit is sanctifying you because you apply the 5 "tests" John presents in 1John. However, has it occurred to you that all those "tests" could seem to be so just as Calvin must assume in my "Institutes" citation? Did Calvin not know about 1John?

Of course he did! What he is really telling us is that those who say they have eternal life but not via Calvinism are claiming "some other way." That their testimonies that salvation is conditional on "something found in them" -- belief, repentance, and reception of salvation by such human "devices" as a prayer -- are boastful and untrue. And since that is the ONLY viable alternative to Calvinist "election" in play, we must just believe that such knowledge is beyond us.

I certainly hope you go back and read my post on the previous page. I do believe that your tanting about my dishonesty is unfounded, friend.

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Huh?


Yet 1John 5:13 says, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,..." You CAN know -- it is NOT "hidden wisdom" -- if you DON'T know, you may, indeed, NOT have it -- and that wouldn't serve Calvin's theology very well, would it.

skypair

WHAT??

Please do not twist the Bible and full verses out of context.

You know well that this passage is toward those that believe...and this is why they know. Even in your verse you post ...it says..."these things have I written unto you that believe"..

This has nothing to do with the non-believer. Shame on you.

 

[Brother Bob]

God is good and everything He made is good. It is when man takes it farther that it becomes sin. God said to have no other Gods before Him, which is good. Man took it farther and had other gods, which is sin.
God said, thou shalt not kill, which is good. Man took it farther and killed which is sin. God said to obey Him, which is good. Man disobeyed, which is sin.

 

[Blammo]

WHAT??

Please do not twist the Bible and full verses out of context.

You know well that this passage is toward those that believe...and this is why they know. Even in your verse you post ...it says..."these things have I written unto you that believe"..

This has nothing to do with the non-believer. Shame on you.

Shame shame, Skypair, Oh shame, shame, shame.

I don't see where you were saying the verse had anything to do with the non-believer, but shame shame, and shame again. :tongue3:

I do see where you were saying the verse tells us that BELIEVERS can know they have eternal life.... but shame on you.

You are right.... but shame, shame, shame. :laugh:

 

[npetreley]

I think this is one of those things where we will go around and around in circles like dogs chasing their tails simply because none of us have been provided the answer by God in Scripture.

You're mostly right here. It's a very difficult thing to pin down because God doesn't go into depth on this in scripture. However, God does give us some hints:

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Who created the vessels of wrath, and who prepared them for destruction?

The obvious is what you implied, but the obvious is not always what is Scripturally correct, and the obvious you pointed out leads to the conclusion that Brother Bob points out: God authored sin.

This is the sticking point, obviously. The phrase "author of sin" implies God created sin, or God, himself, sinned. But sin isn't something you can create. God cannot disobey Himself, so God cannot sin. God can, however, deliberately create someone He knows will disobey Him.

I would ask, why don't you trust God enough to know what He's doing when He does things like this? Don't you trust that God has an ultimately good purpose? Think about the phrase, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good". That says it all right there. On the surface, a witness to these events could conclude that it happened ONLY because Joseph's brothers were doing evil. But God was behind it all, meaning for it to happen, and God did it for good. If we can trust that God meant such a terrible thing to happen for good, then why can't we trust that God had a good reason for meaning for Adam to sin?

 

[russell55]

Here's Calvin quoted: "There is scarcely a mind in which the thought does not sometimes rise, 'Whence comes your salvation but from the election of God? But what proof have you of your election?' When once this thought has taken possession of any individual, it keeps him perpetually miserable, subjects him to dire torment, or throws him into a state of complete stupor ... Therefore, as we dread shipwreck, we must avoid this rock, which is fatal to everyone who strikes upon it..." (Institutes of the Christian Religion III.xxiv,4)

"Among the temptations with which Satan assaults believers, none is greater nor more perilous, than when disquieting them with doubts as to their election, he at the same time stimulates them with a depraved desire of inquiring after it out of the proper way ... I mean when puny man endeavors to pentrate to the hidden recesses of the divine wisdom ... in order that he may understand what final determination God has made with regard to him." (ibid.)

Uhm....read those quotes in context—the whole context.

Ironically, those quotes are taken from a section of the institutes called "ELECTION CONFIRMED BY THE CALLING OF GOD." The entire section is about how people can be sure they are elect. The two quotes you've quoted are about "inquiring about [one's election] out of the proper way." In this case, tthat'd be by trying to peer into God's mind for some sign of it. It's this particular improper way of looking for certainty of one's election that will make one miserable—that will shipwreck faith.

In the very same section from which those two quotes are taken, Calvin gives some proper ways in which we can be certain of our election:

• we know that we lean on Christ alone.
• we hear his voice, we experience his protection, we see his work in us.

 

[J.D.]

God cannot disobey Himself, so God cannot sin.

Good post Npet, and a key thought right there. God is a law unto Himself. No offense intended to either side of the isle, but God is fully justified in executing His wrath on the vessels He prepared for that purpose; and He is also justified in executing mercy on the vessels He prepared for that purpose. He is justified because, well, after all, He is God.

I think if Romans is correctly read, we would see that it's not God's wrath on sinners that is considered unjust by man, but it is His mercy on the elect sinner that brings about man's protests against God. It doesn't bother us if we all get punished for a common sin; it's the idea that someone may not get punished for a sin - that's what bothers us and makes us cry foul. It's against that cry of foul that Paul answers that God is free to do as He pleases - to have mercy on whom He will, or to harden whome He will.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Why me dishonest? Because IF you stick to your Calvinist theology, you are left with no answer.

Actually I gave an answer; you simply didn't like it. So your assertion that I didn't give an answer or that I can't give an answer is dishonest. You not liking or understanding an issue is not the same as me not givign one.

Per my quotation of Calvin, you are not even allowed to ask that question. So, do you want to be a Calvinist -- or would you rather admit that you believed on Christ unto salvation and were regenerated afterward?

I believed on Christ for salvation and was regenerated afterward. And I am a Calvinist. You quote Calvin like we believe him. Our belief is in the Word of God. You should know that by now.

As I just tried to tell you, you can't be regenerated/sanctified by the Spirit until you are first justified by God in your soul.

You have tried to tell us a lot of stuff. You have always fallen short of actually showing us where God said it.

How in the world do you expect the Holy Spirit to come in "rebirthing" you before you ever believe in God/Christ???

No problem really for those who believe it.

And if you already believe you are regenerated "by grace," then how did God regenerate you without Christ??

Through the Spirit. It was not without Christ.

And you believe that in same the 1John manner that I do. You believe, IOW, that the Spirit is sanctifying you because you apply the 5 "tests" John presents in 1John. However, has it occurred to you that all those "tests" could seem to be so just as Calvin must assume in my "Institutes" citation? Did Calvin not know about 1John?

I haven't read Calvin. I don't care what he said. I care for what Scripture says.

I certainly hope you go back and read my post on the previous page. I do believe that your tanting about my dishonesty is unfounded, friend.

Your previous posts compared with mine prove your dishonesty without doubt.

I wish it wasn't that way. It is hard to carry on a conversation with someone who won't even pretend that what I said was actually what I said.

 

[Pastor Larry]

You seem to be ignoring that "time" is a CREATION of God. It has beginning and end. And if there was a something eternally before it, there was a period when NOTHING was even known about it.

Incorrect. Time was a creation by God. But God’s knowledge is eternal.

Joe has no option so far as the outworking of God's decree -- but he does so far as where God got His "material" from -- His foreknowledge. God has already seen this day and Joe has already, in God's foreknowledge, decided. But that doesn't take the choice to receive or reject away from Joe. Joe is FREE to make either decision and only God knows beforehand what that decision will be.

But you are ignoring the point. Joe can’t change his mind. He does not have that freedom because God’s knowledge is perfect. Therefore God allowed Joe to come into existence without the true choice of accepting Christ.

In the foreknowledge of God Joe made a decision.

But how does a non-existent person make a decision?

By calling "foreknowledge" "predestination," it glosses over the mechanism by which salvation truly come -- free will.

I have never seen a Calvinist call “foreknowledge” predestination. There may be some. I haven’t seen it.

God can choose believers whom He foresees or God can choose people whom He predestines to believe. How does that latter work in your head??

God chooses people to salvation.

Does it really make sense to you that God could cause only certain random people to believe?

I don’t think it is random in the least.

How?

How what?

[quote\] Does He "pass over" some who believe but whom He didn't choose (Are there people you know who think they believe and don't?)? [/quote]Yes.

Of course I can demonstrate the soul's justification, spiritual sanctification, and the body's glorification from scripture.

Then do it.

What is Jesus going to do with our bodies, Larry? Glorify them, right?

What does the Holy Spirit do to our spirits? Sanctifies them -- gives us the "mind of Christ." That is why He is called the "Spirit." God's Spirit parallels our own spirit.

As to the soul --- what was it that God gave every believing OT saint? Not the Holy Spirit indwelling, was it. It was "the righteousness of God." How so? Their consciences were pure. Paul speaks of it all the time.

This is typical from you. No actual Bible substance here. Just your own ideas. The Holy Spirit probably indwelled OT saints. But that isn’t really the issue. The issue is that there is no real biblical distinction between the soul and the spirit. It is the immaterial part of man.

I mean, Larry, you either "know" this and won't admit it or didn't get much of an education!

Studying the Bible and taking it seriously certainly means that there are some thing I don’t know. This is one of them.

See, here you have just substituted Calvin's words for scripture.

No I didn’t.

Scripture says "elects us by His Son" and you say "by His grace" taking it totally out of the true basis of His choosing ---- CHRIST!! Do you NOW see how those 2 sentences contradict scripture?? Not "by grace," "by CHRIST."

You are just making this up now. I don’t even think you take this seriously.

I did. I "seconded" what another poster said who said the same thing before me.

I saw no response to the clear passages that teach the Gentiles are elect too. All the assertiosn came before. Here’s the point: You offered no scriptural support that only the Jews are elect. You offered no refutation of the Bible’s teaching that Gentiles are elect too.

Larry, I am trying to take Lord Chesterton's remarks on my own behalf. I am NOT trying to confuse you or mix up the scriptures. It seems you have learned a way to read them that I am not familiar with -- and that while knowing that the Holy Spirit tells me directly opposite of what you tell me.

Perhaps that is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will not lead you contrary to the Word. And in the cases where we have shown you the word you reject it. That is not he Spirit of Christ.

Actually, it seems to be you making that same defenses over and over.

Yes, because the answers don’t change.

We'd been through those verses you gave numerous times

But you have never actually addressed what they say.

I can't deny scriptures though, Larry.

I don’t want you to. But you are doing just that. Here’s a case in point:

You say: We are not elect unto salvation, Larry. We are "elect" to ministry and blessings THROUGH Christ. I don't know how you can believe we are "elect" without Christ.

Compare that to this:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
2 Timothy 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

When we compare your words to the Bible, we see that they are different. And you want us to believe you. I refuse. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[npetreley]

I think if Romans is correctly read, we would see that it's not God's wrath on sinners that is considered unjust by man, but it is His mercy on the elect sinner that brings about man's protests against God. It doesn't bother us if we all get punished for a common sin; it's the idea that someone may not get punished for a sin - that's what bothers us and makes us cry foul. It's against that cry of foul that Paul answers that God is free to do as He pleases - to have mercy on whom He will, or to harden whome He will.

I agree 100%. IMO, that's a key area where free-willers go wrong. They seem to think God is bound by the bill of rights, and must create (and treat) all men as equal.

 

[Rippon]

People in America are affected by American ideals . We elect , we choose , we believe in rugged individualism as exemplified by those in the Andrew Jackson era . We believe in the free will of all people . Non-Christians have much in common with professing believers along these lines .

 

[MB]

People in America are affected by American ideals . We elect , we choose , we believe in rugged individualism as exemplified by those in the Andrew Jackson era . We believe in the free will of all people . Non-Christians have much in common with professing believers along these lines .

Why would God waste time on these vessels of wrath?

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Why endure with much longsuffering those fitted to destruction? The only possible reason is, they have a choice. It's the only logical reason there is and you deny it.
James said,
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

There is no humbleness in particular election, predestination, and ordainment to Salvation. Why men are just saved and that's all there is to it. They didn't even have to submit themselves as in verse 7. Men don't have to draw nigh, cleanse their hands or purify their hearts. No sir, men are saved in the midst of their pride and self love. No need to believe or surrender or repent first there's plenty of time to do that afterwards.

God will save who He wants to save weather you like it or not. He will save those who humble themselves and submit there wills to His. There is no particular election of men to Salvation in God's word.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

 

[npetreley]

Why would God waste time on these vessels of wrath?

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

It says why right in the verse. To make His power known.

Check out the OT for a gazillion examples where God deliberately does things like raise up an evil empire to come and punish Israel, after which He says, "Then you will know that I am the LORD your God." He made His power known.