Free choice to choose...

I guess I don't see it that way at all. If Adam wanted to take from the tree of life, it just tells you that it was his desire, just as it is the desire of all fallen men to sin. That doesn't have anything to do with free will, it just tells you that Adam would want eternal life. Who in their right mind WOULDN'T want eternal life? I wanted eternal life when I was a hard-core atheist, and I want it now that I'm saved.

The real question is, how did I get it? Did God offer it to me and let me decide of my own free will? If that's how it works, then who ISN'T saved?

 

Desiring eternal life is not what saves a person. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is the only way. Those who do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are not saved. No matter how much they desire eternal life.

I know you know that. But I'm not sure you know I know that. Know what I mean?

 

Of course I know that, which is why I don't get your point. This goes back to our previous discussion about how belief is not an act of the will. But I digress.

 

Hello Blammo.

I don't get you at all. The passage says that man has now become like God and must not be allowed to reach out and live forever.

It was his own will because God willed it in Adam's will Amy. RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Idolatry. We do not need symbols we have the reality. Images are too dangerous in a Church, it is yeast. Stick the symbols in an art gallery where they belong.

Blammo, try again. He wasn't free to take from the tree of life after he took from the other tree. Why not? I thought we were all free to take life with our free will? It is guarded against you Bob not for you.



john.

 

No do do do

There is no do do, but hear what the scripture say's.

Zephaniah 3:2
She obeys no one, she accepts no correction. She does not trust in the LORD, she does not draw near to her God.

Hebrews 7:18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Salvation is simple.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your paths]

Love does not labor it is the fullfilment of the Law.

As the scripture says'

Romans 13:8
[ Love, for the Day is Near ] Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

 

Staying saved the problem a psalms?

john.

 

Salvation is simple.

that is an incomplete statement without the scripture

Salvation is simple.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your paths]

 

That's what I said psalms:

Yet another condition.

ISA 28:10 For it is:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there."

ISA 28:11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,

ISA 28:12 to whom he said,
"This is the resting place, let the weary rest";
and, "This is the place of repose"--
but they would not listen.

ISA 28:13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there--
so that they will go and fall backward,
be injured and snared and captured.
​

Keep on doing good by ourselves or He will lead us astray is your answer?

john.

 

I guess my argument is more against jonnycool's belief that God controls our thoughts, desires, and choices. If that were the case, there would be no reason for God to guard the tree of life from Adam's hand. I believe God could control our thoughts, desires, and choices, but I think the verse jonnycool posted shows us that He does not.

 

Gods sovereignty and the freewill of Man are both clearly taught in Scripture.


Election:

John 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."


John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.


Freewill:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!



If Scripture is without error and Scripture teaches both, then both must be true, correct?


After sin was introduced, and God entered the garden looking for Adam, what did Adam do?

Genesis 3:10 So he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself."

He hid, and Man has been hiding from God ever since.

Revelation 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

We will not come to God on our own, even though we have the freewill to do so. Rather we run from God and the acknowledgement of our sins.

God desires that all of us would come to him, but none of us will come on our own. So God does not choose who will go to hell, we choose hell ourselves. The problem is without God calling us and convicting us of our sins, we will continue in them, thus rejecting God and deserving hell.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

The existence of the World and all that is in it is clear evidence of God, yet we will not come to him without him initiating the call by placing conviction and guilt on our hearts. Therefore God Chooses some of us, for his own Divine reasons and through no merit of our own, to bring to him.


Matthew 20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."


Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.


This is the reason that Man is responsible if he goes to hell, but God deserves all the credit for salvation.




More on Election


John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."



John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


John 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."


John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.



John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.



Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.



Romans 9:14-24 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.



2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.



1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.



Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


Matthew 20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."


Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

 

Ferron Brimstone:

Many of us electionists here will not agree with most of what you said, but you have been a gentleman in your post, and I truly appreciate the absence of innuendoes and insinuations against and about Calvinists that some posters have in their posts.

 

1. through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth (is what God chose).

1.
Jhn 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Jhn 12:33This he said, signifying what death he should die.

1. believed

1. First the Jews

2. Gentiles and believing Jews:
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

1.that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love

Every scripture you posted has an answer, with no malice, I might add. Because I differ does not mean I am mean, with malice or anything. I stand for what I believe in, if that makes me a bad person in someone's eyes, I can't help that.

 

As usual the Arminians think I'm Calvinist and the Calvinists think I'm Arminian.

 

To be honest, I didn't label you. Because you posted by sides of the argument. I just wanted you to know that there are answers for the Cal side. I am not Arminian, I am an Old Regular Baptist from the mountains of Kentucky.

 

Not to be pedantic, but God didn't choose "through sanctification of hte Spirit and belief in the truth." The verb "chose" has a direct object: You. God chose people, not a method.

 

Actually I was raised in a Church that never taught predestination nor election. I am also the only one I am aware of my Church willing to consider it. But while studying Romans Ch. 9 I had questions that no one I knew seemed to be able to answer. That is when I developed the idea I posted previously.

 

Well, if I were a Cal, I would agree with you but I do believe God chose a method.
Jhn 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jhn 6:29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

1. If this is not a method then I guess I am wrong.

Peace,

I know, or at least I know part. I have seen your posts before, where you give both arguments.

Romans 9: To me is Paul speaking about the promise being made to the Jews but now was including the Gentiles, hence I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. (In other words the believer). He will harden whom He will harden, (the unbeliever).

Chapters 9, 10 and 11 are speaking of the Israelites in the past and now, and the coming in of the Gentile nation.

The Jews thought they knew who God's people were too, and it didn't include the Gentiles according to them. Also, I might add, it didn't include any of us either Cal/NonCal.

 

I see what you're saying now, but your reasoning doesn't get you to your conclusion, anyway. God chose to make it impossible to get to the tree of life. You can't go from there to "God had to remove Adam's free will or block the tree, and since he blocked the tree, Adam must have had free will." That's a big non-sequitur.

 

Salvation is by grace, but keeping salvation is by works. In other words, "Here's a free Mercedes. All you have to do to keep it is pay me $1,000 per month."

 

Not a problem with Jesus

Trusting in the one that did the work is not a problem men make it work.

It is Jesus that says we must endure to the end not me.

I do not lean on my own understanding but trust in the Lord.

We are saved by grace through faith not work

Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.