Free choice to choose...

[Brother Bob]

I guess us youngins are about the same ole thang.

 

[jonnycool]

Bob.

They served God in the flesh. If you think we serve God in the flesh, then maybe you have one.

Jacob and Esau you mean? What a strange thing to say. When was the last time you westled with God all night and came out on top? I might have a birth right if I serve God in my flesh? All flesh serves God.

What's the 'to do' with the birth-right thing? Explain to me why you think this has anything to do with Esau and his destiny. Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad...

Esau also became a great nation did he not? What's that to do with it?

Do you think God hated Esau without a cause?

Not really, I believe God wanted to show us His purpose in election and to that end He created Esau for the job. No reason is needed or given, God is Sovereign. But I only think that because scripture says, Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad...

There is absolutely nothing that God does not know, including Esau selling his birthright before he was born and had did it.

I asked whether you think we have a birth right Bob and you have not answered it. I thought you were saying that because he sold his birth right, not that that in itself confirms the sale as it had to snatched by guile, that meant he could not be saved. I don't get what you mean by the birth right thing.

I believe you "must believe that Jesus is the Christ from the heart" to be saved, or have a "new birth". Hope that helps.

What's it got to do with birthrights? Can we lose the right to be saved? That's the impression I got from your statements about birth rights.

john.

 

[Brother Bob]

They served God in the flesh. If you think we serve God in the flesh, then maybe you have one.
Jacob and Esau you mean? What a strange thing to say. When was the last time you westled with God all night and came out on top? I might have a birth right if I serve God in my flesh? All flesh serves God.

God seeketh such to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

Rom 8:8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Quote:
Do you think God hated Esau without a cause?

Not really, I believe God wanted to show us His purpose in election and to that end He created Esau for the job. No reason is needed or given, God is Sovereign. But I only think that because scripture says, Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad...

If I am not wrong, you think He chose you before you did anything good or bad.

There is absolutely nothing that God does not know, including Esau selling his birthright before he was born and had did it.
I asked whether you think we have a birth right Bob and you have not answered it. I thought you were saying that because he sold his birth right, not that that in itself confirms the sale as it had to snatched by guile, that meant he could not be saved. I don't get what you mean by the birth right thing.

It was through flesh and blood that the inherited the promise. It took the blood of Christ for the promise to be to us.

What's it got to do with birthrights? Can we lose the right to be saved? That's the impression I got from your statements about birth rights.

Sorry you took it that way, I am a believer in OSAS. God Bless,

 

[jonnycool]

Bob.

God seeketh such to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

Flesh gives birth to flesh and nothing else. The Holy Spirit gives birth to our spirit.

If I am not wrong, you think He chose you before you did anything good or bad.

It would be a strange day when I admitted to doing good.

What's it got to do with birthrights? Can we lose the right to be saved? That's the impression I got from your statements about birth rights.

Sorry you took it that way, I am a believer in OSAS. God Bless,

I don't understand, can we lose the right to be saved in the first place is the question?

It was through flesh and blood that the inherited the promise.

Esau is saved?

john.

 

[Brother Bob]

I don't understand, can we lose the right to be saved in the first place is the question?

Quote:
It was through flesh and blood that the inherited the promise.

Esau is saved?

I don't believe Esau was saved.

Yes, a man could lose his right to be saved. He could blasphemy the Holy Ghost or there is a time if man went far enough:
Gen 6:3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Hope this helps, we seem to be having a hard time communicating!

 

[jonnycool]

Yes, a man could lose his right to be saved.

Man has no rights man is the property of the Despot.

...or there is a time if man went far enough:

Yet if God's desire is that none perish why does He harden sinners instead of softening them Bob? (This harkens back to post #89.)

If free will was worth anything what right has He to interfer with it? You say that if we use our free will for good then God will bless us but if we use it for evil then we can go too far with our free will? That makes free will free in only one direction. It's free as long as we do as we are told?

I don't believe Esau was saved.

Why not?

Hope this helps, we seem to be having a hard time communicating!

We do.

john.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
I don't believe Esau was saved.

Why not?

Oba 1:10¶For [thy] violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.

Yet if God's desire is that none perish why does He harden sinners instead of softening them Bob? (This harkens back to post #89.)

If free will was worth anything what right has He to interfer with it? You say that if we use our free will for good then God will bless us but if we use it for evil then we can go too far with our free will? That makes free will free in only one direction. It's free as long as we do as we are told?

I don't understand your understanding.

johnnycool; If free will was worth anything what right has He to interfer with it?

Why would you make a commit like this. It swells with arrogance to me.

I have to go to church, talk with you later.

God can do what He wants. He said He would not strive with man always, who are you or I to question Him.

Man has no rights man is the property of the Despot.

You say we don't have no rights. We don't of ourselves, but God gave us the right to choose to believe or disbelieve. I can start quoting you a whole bunch of scripture if you want, but it would probably be to no avail.

Jhn 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We certainly have the right to believe or not.


Some of our rights given by God.
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
( Why did Paul not tell them that the saved were already chosen?)

Mar 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
( Why did Jesus not tell them that the saved were already chosen?)

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
( Why did Jesus tell them to preach the gospel to every creature, if the saved were already chosen and why did Jesus not tell them the saved were already chosen. Did he come to make mockery of the lost?)

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
( Why did Jesus say there was a possibility that others could be saved when He knew they could not?)

Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(Why would Jesus say such a thing and give people hope when they had no hope?)

Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
(Why would Jesus say this to all, if only a chosen few could be saved?)

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Why would the prophet Joel say this when only a chosen few could be saved?)

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
(Why would Paul say we are saved by hope, when you say the saved were prechosen?)

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Why would Paul say this, knowing the saved was already chosen?)

I could go on but there is no reason. Pretty good "rights" don't you think?
BBob,

 

[skypair]

Yes, salvation happens because we were chosen.

This is Jewish/Israel belief. You're still using "chosen" as to salvation when not even your paradigm, the children of Israel, were chosen to salvation.

Salvation comes through the setting apart of the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Just reverse that formulation and you will have the truth.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I find it cool that we must ask God not to lead us into temptation don't you skypair?

Why do you pray if God doesn't change His mind?

What happens if one doesn't ask? "every one" means only the "elect!"

Actually, it COULDN'T mean "elect." Know why? Cause this instance doesn't say "everyone" but "every one" -- 2 words. That would mean every individual who asks receives.

And, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Is Jesus putting the seal on it. His will is always done.

Yes, indeed, SOME DAY He will! :jesus:

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

This is Jewish/Israel belief. You're still using "chosen" as to salvation when not even your paradigm, the children of Israel, were chosen to salvation.

The children of Israel were chosen as a nation, but not to salvation. Chosen is also used to refer to individuals chosen to salvation, some of whom are Israelites and some of whom are not. You gotta remember that words have meaning in context. The fact that it means one thing in one place does not mean that it means the same thing in every place.

Just reverse that formulation and you will have the truth.

My formulation is truth because it comes from Scripture. Reversing it contradicts Scripture and is therefore unacceptable

Know why? Cause this instance doesn't say "everyone" but "every one" -- 2 words. That would mean every individual who asks receives.

Without respect for whether or not it means "elect," the "one word" or "two word" argument is not a biblical one. It is one word -- pas. It is not two words. Generally, in Greek, the pas word group is used for these kinds of things.

However, interestingly, it is "all" of a group -- those that ask. So here is yet another example where "all" does not mean "all" but rather is qualified to mean "all of a subset of people."

But I would abandon the "two word" argument. It doesn't work.

 

[skypair]

Let me posit "free will" and "election" another scriptural way ---

"In all thy [free will choices] acknowledge Him and He shall direct thy [election]."

See, that doesn't work the other way around because one can't know for sure that they are "elect" (since you claim that "election" has absolutely nothing at all to do with you) and you have no earthly idea why or that He would have "picked" you anyway.

See, both are true, scriptural concepts but they have their own respective frames of reference.

skypair

 

[AresMan]

Why do you pray if God doesn't change His mind?

Why do you pray if you do not believe God has/uses the ability to override a sinful will?

Does God "do all He can" to "convict" every individual everywhere at all times?

If He doesn't, why not? Doesn't He want to keep every single person out of hell at all costs?

If He does, what difference do your prayers make if God, indeed, always "tries" the most "possible" to convict every heart? What difference do your prayers make if God is at the mercy of one's inalterable will?

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe [or, the believers].
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks ["all"?], Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

Intellectually, the Gospel of faith is "foolishness." God does not respect the "wise," He calls people everywhere to believe the "foolishness" of the Gospel.

1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

God has determined the end (the believers/elect) and the means (the foolishness of preaching). The reason we preach the Gospel is because God's Word says that God has determined that the preaching of the Gospel is what He uses to save people. God's Word does not return void. It is quick and powerful. God uses this foolishness to turn hearts of stone into hearts of flesh.

There is no valid reason to divorce the end (believers/elect) from the means (Gospel preaching). One does not cancel out the other, in fact, one does not make much sense without the other.

 

[AresMan]

one can't know for sure that they are "elect" (since you claim that "election" has absolutely nothing at all to do with you) and you have no earthly idea why or that He would have "picked" you anyway.

I think you really misunderstand that point.

When one says that election has absolutely nothing to do with a person, he means that there was nothing about that person in particular that would prompt God to save him. Sin is the great equalizer. All are sinners. All willingly, consciously reject God's salvation by default. There is nothing inherently better about anyone more than any other in which God would say, "Ok. He seems like a nice person. He's smart and has a mind for right. I think I'll reach down, lift him out of the miry clay, and set him on higher ground." God does not respect persons. Election has nothing to do with any qualities that originate in any person that makes that person, by definition, better than any other. God saves people of all sorts of characteristics and personalities of all kindreds, tongues, and nations, but not one gets God's grace because of any sort of savable quality that a person could rightly claim as inherent of himself.

As for being sure that one is elect, that is simple: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Election and Gospel faith are not mutually exclusive. There is no defensible logical or Scriptural reason to believe that they are not one and the same. The only question is, which one logically produces the other?

 

[skypair]

Why do you pray if you do not believe God has/uses the ability to override a sinful will?

Are you saying that "God has/uses [OUR] ability" to pray in order to override OUR sinful will? If so, do you not see that your prayer is really centered in yourself and not God? It is what the Bible calls "will worship," Col 2:23 It's wise; it's humble; it is neglect of self. But it presumes that God really takes no active part in changing what He has already planned for you.

He, therefore, doesn't use our ability to do anything but "ask" whereupon He will actively respond changing what He thought to do to us. Much like in the case of Nineveh, His wrath was turned aside to blessing!!

Does God "do all He can" to "convict" every individual everywhere at all times?

I believe He does. Whether we take note of it, "glorify Him" or "are thankful" (Rom 1:21) is the issue. We can always turn toward the light or away.

If He doesn't, why not? Doesn't He want to keep every single person out of hell at all costs?

Absolutely!!

If He does, what difference do your prayers make if God, indeed, always "tries" the most "possible" to convict every heart?

This is good stuff! I'm glad you express your uncertainty on these issues. raying: There are several "differences" they make. As one of Adrian Rogers best sermons ever taught 1) they can bind Satan; 2) they can loose the Spirit; 3) they can empower and "send a messenger," often YOU but not always; 4) they can arrange the opportunity. Have you ever thought about these things that God can do "on the spot" because He "foresees" our prayers rather than just predestinate everything as "eternal, unchangeable decree?"

What difference do your prayers make if God is at the mercy of one's inalterable will?

It really makes the issue of choice more urgent for the one out of God's will.

Intellectually, the Gospel of faith is "foolishness." God does not respect the "wise," He calls people everywhere to believe the "foolishness" of the Gospel.

I know you realize that God could not do the impossible unless He chose to randomly, beforehand with no input on our part. That is just a false image. Here's the point -- "The FOOL has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" So the one to whom the gospel is foolishness is the one who has already rejected God whether wise or unwise.

God has determined the end (the believers/elect) and the means (the foolishness of preaching).

Yes. Unfortunately, your theology disconnects them. There is no PURPOSE for preaching if the ends are not in doubt. You aresimultaneously saying 1) that God calls the elect by preaching and 2) He doesn't call the elect by preaching.

The reason we preach the Gospel is because God's Word says that God has determined that the preaching of the Gospel is what He uses to save people.

See, your first premise denies this, Ares. Your first premise is that "God has determined the end." Now what you say is it depends on man. Which is it?

skypair

 

[skypair]

When one says that election has absolutely nothing to do with a person, he means that there was nothing about that person in particular that would prompt God to save him.

And I say there is -- BELIEF prompts God to save that particular person. Specifically, in this age, belief on Christ.

As for being sure that one is elect, that is simple: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

But you see, that IS something prompts God to save you.

Election and Gospel faith are not mutually exclusive. The only question is, which one logically produces the other?

You're right. Which produces which is the "Calvinist vs. free will" sotierological issue in a nutshell. And, truth be told, if you are believing in "election" for salvation, you don't have either "Election" or "Gospel faith," do you.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

And, truth be told, if you are believing in "election" for salvation, you don't have either "Election" or "Gospel faith," do you.

Nobody "believes in election" for their salvation. Your responses are getting increasingly pathetic.

Quite the contrary, anyone who believes God wants to save everyone but fails has a serious problem. That's an incompetent "god".

The god of this century no more resembles the Sovereign of Holy Writ than does the dim flickering of a candle the glory of the midday sun. The god who is talked about in the average pulpit, spoken of in the ordinary Sunday school, mentioned in much of the religious literature of the day, and preached in most of the so-called Bible conferences, is a figment of human imagination, an invention of maudlin sentimentality. The heathen outside the pale of Christendom form gods of wood and stone, while millions of heathen inside Christendom manufacture a god out of their carnal minds. In reality, they are but atheists, for there is no other possible alternative between an absolutely supreme God and no God at all. A god whose will is resisted, whose designs are frustrated, whose purpose is checkmated, possesses no title to diety and, far from being a fit object of worship, merits nothing but contempt.

- A.W. Pink

 

[Timtoolman]

.......................... Your responses are getting increasingly pathetic. ............................

The great communicator. WHat is your problem besides pride and ignorance.

 

[npetreley]

WHat is your problem besides pride and ignorance.

I'm ugly, too.

 

[Pastor Larry]

There is no PURPOSE for preaching if the ends are not in doubt.

Um, No. The purpose of preaching is to accomplish the ends.

You aresimultaneously saying 1) that God calls the elect by preaching and 2) He doesn't call the elect by preaching.

Where was this said? I think most agree that he does call the elect by preaching.

 

[saturneptune]

I'm ugly, too.

Thats a fact, I hear your face could back a buzzard out of a maggot wagon :laugh: