Free choice to choose...

I guess us youngins are about the same ole thang.

 

Bob.

Jacob and Esau you mean? What a strange thing to say. When was the last time you westled with God all night and came out on top? I might have a birth right if I serve God in my flesh? All flesh serves God.

What's the 'to do' with the birth-right thing? Explain to me why you think this has anything to do with Esau and his destiny. Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad...

Esau also became a great nation did he not? What's that to do with it?

Not really, I believe God wanted to show us His purpose in election and to that end He created Esau for the job. No reason is needed or given, God is Sovereign. But I only think that because scripture says, Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad...

I asked whether you think we have a birth right Bob and you have not answered it. I thought you were saying that because he sold his birth right, not that that in itself confirms the sale as it had to snatched by guile, that meant he could not be saved. I don't get what you mean by the birth right thing.

What's it got to do with birthrights? Can we lose the right to be saved? That's the impression I got from your statements about birth rights.

john.

 

God seeketh such to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

Rom 8:8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

If I am not wrong, you think He chose you before you did anything good or bad.

It was through flesh and blood that the inherited the promise. It took the blood of Christ for the promise to be to us.

Sorry you took it that way, I am a believer in OSAS. God Bless,

 

Bob.

Flesh gives birth to flesh and nothing else. The Holy Spirit gives birth to our spirit.

It would be a strange day when I admitted to doing good.

What's it got to do with birthrights? Can we lose the right to be saved? That's the impression I got from your statements about birth rights.

I don't understand, can we lose the right to be saved in the first place is the question?

Esau is saved?

john.

 

I don't believe Esau was saved.

Yes, a man could lose his right to be saved. He could blasphemy the Holy Ghost or there is a time if man went far enough:
Gen 6:3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Hope this helps, we seem to be having a hard time communicating!

 

Man has no rights man is the property of the Despot.

Yet if God's desire is that none perish why does He harden sinners instead of softening them Bob? (This harkens back to post #89.)

If free will was worth anything what right has He to interfer with it? You say that if we use our free will for good then God will bless us but if we use it for evil then we can go too far with our free will? That makes free will free in only one direction. It's free as long as we do as we are told?

Why not?

We do.

john.

 

Quote:
I don't believe Esau was saved.

Why not?

Oba 1:10¶For [thy] violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.

I don't understand your understanding.

johnnycool; If free will was worth anything what right has He to interfer with it?

Why would you make a commit like this. It swells with arrogance to me.

I have to go to church, talk with you later.

God can do what He wants. He said He would not strive with man always, who are you or I to question Him.

You say we don't have no rights. We don't of ourselves, but God gave us the right to choose to believe or disbelieve. I can start quoting you a whole bunch of scripture if you want, but it would probably be to no avail.

Jhn 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We certainly have the right to believe or not.


Some of our rights given by God.
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
( Why did Paul not tell them that the saved were already chosen?)

Mar 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
( Why did Jesus not tell them that the saved were already chosen?)

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
( Why did Jesus tell them to preach the gospel to every creature, if the saved were already chosen and why did Jesus not tell them the saved were already chosen. Did he come to make mockery of the lost?)

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
( Why did Jesus say there was a possibility that others could be saved when He knew they could not?)

Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(Why would Jesus say such a thing and give people hope when they had no hope?)

Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
(Why would Jesus say this to all, if only a chosen few could be saved?)

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Why would the prophet Joel say this when only a chosen few could be saved?)

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
(Why would Paul say we are saved by hope, when you say the saved were prechosen?)

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Why would Paul say this, knowing the saved was already chosen?)

I could go on but there is no reason. Pretty good "rights" don't you think?
BBob,

 

This is Jewish/Israel belief. You're still using "chosen" as to salvation when not even your paradigm, the children of Israel, were chosen to salvation.

Just reverse that formulation and you will have the truth.

skypair

 

Why do you pray if God doesn't change His mind?

Actually, it COULDN'T mean "elect." Know why? Cause this instance doesn't say "everyone" but "every one" -- 2 words. That would mean every individual who asks receives.

Yes, indeed, SOME DAY He will! :jesus:

skypair

 

The children of Israel were chosen as a nation, but not to salvation. Chosen is also used to refer to individuals chosen to salvation, some of whom are Israelites and some of whom are not. You gotta remember that words have meaning in context. The fact that it means one thing in one place does not mean that it means the same thing in every place.

My formulation is truth because it comes from Scripture. Reversing it contradicts Scripture and is therefore unacceptable

Without respect for whether or not it means "elect," the "one word" or "two word" argument is not a biblical one. It is one word -- pas. It is not two words. Generally, in Greek, the pas word group is used for these kinds of things.

However, interestingly, it is "all" of a group -- those that ask. So here is yet another example where "all" does not mean "all" but rather is qualified to mean "all of a subset of people."

But I would abandon the "two word" argument. It doesn't work.

 

Let me posit "free will" and "election" another scriptural way ---

"In all thy [free will choices] acknowledge Him and He shall direct thy [election]."

See, that doesn't work the other way around because one can't know for sure that they are "elect" (since you claim that "election" has absolutely nothing at all to do with you) and you have no earthly idea why or that He would have "picked" you anyway.

See, both are true, scriptural concepts but they have their own respective frames of reference.

skypair

 

Why do you pray if you do not believe God has/uses the ability to override a sinful will?

Does God "do all He can" to "convict" every individual everywhere at all times?

If He doesn't, why not? Doesn't He want to keep every single person out of hell at all costs?

If He does, what difference do your prayers make if God, indeed, always "tries" the most "possible" to convict every heart? What difference do your prayers make if God is at the mercy of one's inalterable will?

Intellectually, the Gospel of faith is "foolishness." God does not respect the "wise," He calls people everywhere to believe the "foolishness" of the Gospel.

God has determined the end (the believers/elect) and the means (the foolishness of preaching). The reason we preach the Gospel is because God's Word says that God has determined that the preaching of the Gospel is what He uses to save people. God's Word does not return void. It is quick and powerful. God uses this foolishness to turn hearts of stone into hearts of flesh.

There is no valid reason to divorce the end (believers/elect) from the means (Gospel preaching). One does not cancel out the other, in fact, one does not make much sense without the other.

 

I think you really misunderstand that point.

When one says that election has absolutely nothing to do with a person, he means that there was nothing about that person in particular that would prompt God to save him. Sin is the great equalizer. All are sinners. All willingly, consciously reject God's salvation by default. There is nothing inherently better about anyone more than any other in which God would say, "Ok. He seems like a nice person. He's smart and has a mind for right. I think I'll reach down, lift him out of the miry clay, and set him on higher ground." God does not respect persons. Election has nothing to do with any qualities that originate in any person that makes that person, by definition, better than any other. God saves people of all sorts of characteristics and personalities of all kindreds, tongues, and nations, but not one gets God's grace because of any sort of savable quality that a person could rightly claim as inherent of himself.

As for being sure that one is elect, that is simple: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Election and Gospel faith are not mutually exclusive. There is no defensible logical or Scriptural reason to believe that they are not one and the same. The only question is, which one logically produces the other?

 

Are you saying that "God has/uses [OUR] ability" to pray in order to override OUR sinful will? If so, do you not see that your prayer is really centered in yourself and not God? It is what the Bible calls "will worship," Col 2:23 It's wise; it's humble; it is neglect of self. But it presumes that God really takes no active part in changing what He has already planned for you.

He, therefore, doesn't use our ability to do anything but "ask" whereupon He will actively respond changing what He thought to do to us. Much like in the case of Nineveh, His wrath was turned aside to blessing!!

I believe He does. Whether we take note of it, "glorify Him" or "are thankful" (Rom 1:21) is the issue. We can always turn toward the light or away.

Absolutely!!

This is good stuff! I'm glad you express your uncertainty on these issues. raying: There are several "differences" they make. As one of Adrian Rogers best sermons ever taught 1) they can bind Satan; 2) they can loose the Spirit; 3) they can empower and "send a messenger," often YOU but not always; 4) they can arrange the opportunity. Have you ever thought about these things that God can do "on the spot" because He "foresees" our prayers rather than just predestinate everything as "eternal, unchangeable decree?"

It really makes the issue of choice more urgent for the one out of God's will.

I know you realize that God could not do the impossible unless He chose to randomly, beforehand with no input on our part. That is just a false image. Here's the point -- "The FOOL has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" So the one to whom the gospel is foolishness is the one who has already rejected God whether wise or unwise.

Yes. Unfortunately, your theology disconnects them. There is no PURPOSE for preaching if the ends are not in doubt. You aresimultaneously saying 1) that God calls the elect by preaching and 2) He doesn't call the elect by preaching.

See, your first premise denies this, Ares. Your first premise is that "God has determined the end." Now what you say is it depends on man. Which is it?

skypair

 

And I say there is -- BELIEF prompts God to save that particular person. Specifically, in this age, belief on Christ.

But you see, that IS something prompts God to save you.

You're right. Which produces which is the "Calvinist vs. free will" sotierological issue in a nutshell. And, truth be told, if you are believing in "election" for salvation, you don't have either "Election" or "Gospel faith," do you.

skypair

 

Nobody "believes in election" for their salvation. Your responses are getting increasingly pathetic.

Quite the contrary, anyone who believes God wants to save everyone but fails has a serious problem. That's an incompetent "god".

 

The great communicator. WHat is your problem besides pride and ignorance.

 

I'm ugly, too.

 

Um, No. The purpose of preaching is to accomplish the ends.

Where was this said? I think most agree that he does call the elect by preaching.

 

Thats a fact, I hear your face could back a buzzard out of a maggot wagon :laugh: