Free choice to choose...

[npetreley]

It's as much that we refuse to be called something we aren't Arminians or Palegians and that you acknowledge proudly that you are Calvinists.

There's a huge difference between calling someone a Calvinist, and saying that someone follows Calvin instead of Christ. You say the latter, over and over again, ad nauseum.

 

[skypair]

There's a huge difference between calling someone a Calvinist, and saying that someone follows Calvin instead of Christ. You say the latter, over and over again, ad nauseum.

Four and fewer pointers object sometimes to being called Calvinists so all I can do is point out where they seem to follow Calvin.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

Four and fewer pointers object sometimes to being called Calvinists so all I can do is point out where they seem to follow Calvin.

skypair

Then you won't mind if I point out where you seem to follow Pelagius instead of Christ, right? After all, you seem to object to being called an Arminian, and you definitely stray from the teachings of Arminius.

 

[Pastor Larry]

It's as much that we refuse to be called something we aren't Arminians or Palegians and that you acknowledge proudly that you are Calvinists.

Actually, it is that you do not know the historical name for what you believe. We do. Someone is a Pelagian or semi pelagian, or Arminian because of what they believe, not because they know or accept the label that has been historically attached to it.

Anyway, how do they choose "life"/"good?" They can't even see God's "good," can they?

They choose life or good by choosing. I am not sure how that is confusing. Remember, they were living under the Law when "choosing good" meant "obey the Law."

[quote[How about "Choose ye this day whom you will serve, but as for me and my family..." Again, choose.[/quote]yes, and I don't know of any Calvinist who disputes that verse. The next one I find will be the first one.

Also, what was the "substance" and "evidence" of your faith?

Not sure what you are asking.

 

[skypair]

Then you won't mind if I point out where you seem to follow Pelagius instead of Christ, right? After all, you seem to object to being called an Arminian, and you definitely stray from the teachings of Arminius.

Would it matter if I minded?? :laugh:

skypair

 

[skypair]

Not sure what you are asking.

What is your proof of your faith? I'm still trying to get at how you know the "secret counsels of God" wherein He chose you to salvation rather than vice versa.

skypair

 

[MB]

It says why right in the verse. To make His power known.

Check out the OT for a gazillion examples where God deliberately does things like raise up an evil empire to come and punish Israel, after which He says, "Then you will know that I am the LORD your God." He made His power known.

Took me a while to find my post sorry about that.

Exactly, His power, not the power of election, predestination, or ordainment. His power alone. He endured with much long suffering the vessles of wrath and they became the vessles of mercy in the very next verse. His enduring the vessles of wrath made them vessles of mercy too.
MB

 

[Pastor Larry]

What is your proof of your faith? I'm still trying to get at how you know the "secret counsels of God" wherein He chose you to salvation rather than vice versa.

The proof of my faith is that I believe, and continue to believe. The secret counsels of God in election are revealed in that manner.

Exactly, His power, not the power of election, predestination, or ordainment. His power alone.

God's power is made evident through election, predestination, or ordainment. You have drawn a false dichotomy.

He endured with much long suffering the vessles of wrath and they became the vessles of mercy in the very next verse. His enduring the vessles of wrath made them vessles of mercy too.

Are you in Romans 9? Because that's not what the text says. The vessels of wrath did not become vessels of mercy. You need to read the text again.

 

[skypair]

The proof of my faith is that I believe, and continue to believe. The secret counsels of God in election are revealed in that manner.

"Belief" is not proof. You believe that the sun will come up tomorrow but that doesn't prove it will. You can never have proof of something future. You can only believe it is so.

But if you have FAITH, you have seen it happen already. What have you seen happen already and is what you have "seen" reliable proof of election?

See, I saw myself repent and receive Christ and I "saw" God's Spirit immediately working in me in regeneration. Since then I have seen the Spirit teaching me the mysteries and parables which only those who are "perfect"/saved are able to see, 1Cor 2:6. Those are 2 which I can say that an unsaved person for sure isn't going to know/"see." You??

skypair

 

[npetreley]

Took me a while to find my post sorry about that.

Exactly, His power, not the power of election, predestination, or ordainment. His power alone. He endured with much long suffering the vessles of wrath and they became the vessles of mercy in the very next verse. His enduring the vessles of wrath made them vessles of mercy too.
MB

The text does not allow this interpretation.

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

The vessels of wrath are prepared for destruction. The vessels of mercy are prepared beforehand for glory. Two different vessels, not the same ones converted to the other.

 

[psalms109:31]

vessels of wrath

We are all in vessels of wrath, the new vessels that believers will be given the spiritual body is made for mercy.

We are given this new body by being in Jesus our salvation.

 

[Pastor Larry]

"Belief" is not proof. You believe that the sun will come up tomorrow but that doesn't prove it will. You can never have proof of something future. You can only believe it is so.

Your question makes no real sense. The proof that I have faith is that I believe.

But if you have FAITH, you have seen it happen already. What have you seen happen already and is what you have "seen" reliable proof of election?

Again, a question that doesn't really make sense. Faith is not seeing it happen already. What I have seen in my life (belief, perseverance, conviction, etc) is reliable proof of election.

 

[skypair]

Again, a question that doesn't really make sense. Faith is not seeing it happen already. What I have seen in my life (belief, perseverance, conviction, etc) is reliable proof of election.

Reliable proof that you have elected yourself, at least -- you did become a minister. Election is ministry.

I gave you some examples of my "proof" whereby I find myself to be saved. Of course, I also have proof that I am elected as well (obedience, ministry, belief, etc.).

And faith IS sight of a sort. It is spiritual sight. "Unless a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God," right? What you show me is good (belief, perseverance, conviction, etc), but a Mormon has those as well. No doubt they are "elect" unto their God as well.

Consider this, Larry -- you can believe anything you put your mind to believing. In your case, I believe you do believe in election -- God has a purpose for you which you are living out. I was asking for proof of your salvation. Not just that you are "walking in His steps" but that you are being "carried in His everlasting arms." What do you spiritually "see" in your new life? What was your experience surrounding the day of your "election"/salvation? How did you discover that you were a "new creature" in Christ?

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

Reliable proof that you have elected yourself, at least -- you did become a minister. Election is ministry.

We have undeniably refuted that claim simply by quoting Scxripture.

I gave you some examples of my "proof" whereby I find myself to be saved. Of course, I also have proof that I am elected as well (obedience, ministry, belief, etc.).

So?

And faith IS sight of a sort. It is spiritual sight. "Unless a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God," right? What you show me is good (belief, perseverance, conviction, etc), but a Mormon has those as well. No doubt they are "elect" unto their God as well.

In your case, I believe you do believe in election -- God has a purpose for you which you are living out. I was asking for proof of your salvation. Not just that you are "walking in His steps" but that you are being "carried in His everlasting arms." What do you spiritually "see" in your new life? What was your experience surrounding the day of your "election"/salvation? How did you discover that you were a "new creature" in Christ?

I explained all that already. Rather than repeat myself, I will just ask you to read it again, this time with thoughtfulness. There is always a first.

 

[skypair]

We have undeniably refuted that claim simply by quoting Scxripture.

Aw, you Yanks are all alike! :laugh: What's wrong, your "Bible belt" cinched too tight? :laugh:

Here's some parallels to ponder:

• salvation - election
• eternal life - daily life
• soul - spirit
• saved by His death - saved by His life

Let me know if you get it. I gotta to play golf.

skypair

 

[rsr]

Having reached 30 pages, this thread is ready for retirement.