Free Grace Theology without Penal Substitutionary Atonement, and Free Grace Theology with it.

[Guido]

Excellent thread open, asking good questions! Thanks.

First I think "GES" refers to "Grace Evangelical Society."

Here is a quote concerning their "gospel:"

No act of obedience, preceding or following faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, such as commitment to obey, sorrow for sin, turning from one’s sin, baptism or submission to the Lordship of Christ, may be added to, or considered part of, faith as a condition for receiving everlasting life (Rom 4:5; Gal 2:16; Titus 3:5). This saving transaction between God and the sinner is simply the giving and receiving of a free gift (Eph 2:8-9; John 4:10 ; Rev 22:17 ).​

Thus they are advocates of "Easy Believism" and should be avoided.

I could not find the answer to your question concerning PSA.

The Greek words translated "propitiation" are 'hilasmos" (G2434) found in 1 John 2:2 and 4:10, which is a noun describing the means of appeasing God and turning aside His wrath. The other Greek word translated "propitiation" is "hilasterion" (G2435) is found in Romans 3:25 and Hebrews 9:5 (translated as mercy seat, the cover of the Ark of the Covenant). In this form the word points to the place where God's wrath is turned aside, thus Christ is the means of reconciliation or more directly salvation.

Related Greek words are "hileos" found in Matthew 16:22 and Hebrews 8:12, which is an adjective describing God being merciful, and "hilaskomai" (G2433) found in Luke 18:13 and Hebrews 2:17, which is a verb describing God action of being merciful by turning aside His wrath due to the sins of the people.

In summary the idea is that Christ provides the means of salvation, and those God places within Christ spiritually enter His propitiatory shelter, thus turning aside His wrath and being mercifully forgiven. He is the means of Salvation, but to obtain the benefit of His sacrifice, God must credit your faith as righteousness and place you individually within Christ.

I can't really tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with GES. You seem to think that James 2 somehow expands Romans 4.

Oh and thank you for saying excellent thread and stuff.

Sorry, I was seriously asking questions, but now I am pretty certain on the issue, although I am open to reproof if adequately supported by scripture.

 

[Van]

I can't really tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with GES. You seem to think that James 2 somehow expands Romans 4.

Oh and thank you for saying excellent thread and stuff.

Sorry, I was seriously asking questions, but now I am pretty certain on the issue, although I am open to reproof if adequately supported by scripture.

In what post did I suggest James 2 expands Romans 4?
Can you provide a link to the article where GES indicates they believe in Penal Substitution Atonement?

I did not see where you advocated false doctrine, unless you advocate "Easy Believism."

PSA is false doctrine, a Trojan Horse for Limited Atonement, claiming Christ died only for the specific sins of specific individuals chosen before creation.

 

[Van]

Psalm 119:1-5

Aleph
Blessed are those whose way is blameless,
Who walk in the Law of the LORD.

Blessed are those who comply with His testimonies,
And seek Him with all their heart.

They also do no injustice;
They walk in His ways.

You have ordained Your precepts,
That we are to keep them diligently.

Oh that my ways may be established
To keep Your statutes!​

Jesus taught we should make disciples, teaching them (the disciples) all that He had commanded.

Some claim we do not need to heed Christ's commands, nor to even teach them to others, in fact we should teach that we do not need to even strive to follow Christ. But as for me and my house, we will follow the Lord.

 

[Deacon]

After reading some of a commentary on Romans by Zane Hodges, I began to have more confidence in the Free Grace Position,

I’m not really following the conversation in this thread but I take a Free Grace position.

IMO, Zane Hodges works are quite quirky, …actually many of the popular proponents of the FG position have ideas that (in my opinion) are a bit off the mark.

“Free Grace Theology” is not a fully developed theological position. It’s a niche, a specialized segment of a theology system.

John MacArthur originally stirred the pot by aggrandizing his personal theology in the first edition of his book, The Gospel According to Jesus. He should have backed down and admitted to over stating his case… but that’s not how MacA works. And so we have this small clarifying division called Free Grace Theology, whose major proponents in a manner similar to MacA, have over stated their position.

When reading books on the topic: Eat the meat, leave the peas.

Rob

 

[Alan Gross]

This has to do with the fallacious notion that all sin everywhere and for all time is forgiven, and that all one has to do to enter heaven is believe.

Naturally they would deny the central work of the Cross.

That is an Eternally Fatal Mistake, which excludes CONVERSION from a dead state of sin, to Eternal Life that Only God Quickens to.

 

[Guido]

Excellent thread open, asking good questions! Thanks.

First I think "GES" refers to "Grace Evangelical Society."

Here is a quote concerning their "gospel:"

No act of obedience, preceding or following faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, such as commitment to obey, sorrow for sin, turning from one’s sin, baptism or submission to the Lordship of Christ, may be added to, or considered part of, faith as a condition for receiving everlasting life (Rom 4:5; Gal 2:16; Titus 3:5). This saving transaction between God and the sinner is simply the giving and receiving of a free gift (Eph 2:8-9; John 4:10 ; Rev 22:17 ).​

Thus they are advocates of "Easy Believism" and should be avoided.

I could not find the answer to your question concerning PSA.

The Greek words translated "propitiation" are 'hilasmos" (G2434) found in 1 John 2:2 and 4:10, which is a noun describing the means of appeasing God and turning aside His wrath. The other Greek word translated "propitiation" is "hilasterion" (G2435) is found in Romans 3:25 and Hebrews 9:5 (translated as mercy seat, the cover of the Ark of the Covenant). In this form the word points to the place where God's wrath is turned aside, thus Christ is the means of reconciliation or more directly salvation.

Related Greek words are "hileos" found in Matthew 16:22 and Hebrews 8:12, which is an adjective describing God being merciful, and "hilaskomai" (G2433) found in Luke 18:13 and Hebrews 2:17, which is a verb describing God action of being merciful by turning aside His wrath due to the sins of the people.

In summary the idea is that Christ provides the means of salvation, and those God places within Christ spiritually enter His propitiatory shelter, thus turning aside His wrath and being mercifully forgiven. He is the means of Salvation, but to obtain the benefit of His sacrifice, God must credit your faith as righteousness and place you individually within Christ.

GES does not deny substitutionary atonement; they affirm it.

If substitutionary atonement is false, then no one paid for your sins. Therefore, since you are a sinner, are all your sins are unpaid for, and since no one qualifies for eternal life through the law, you are straight on your way to hell, without any hope.

All who've ever believed that John 3:16 is true at one time have received everlasting life the moment they believed. Believing any one of the promises in John 3:16 about eternal life, ought, in my opinion, result in eternal life in the believer. I would have to double check the articles on faithalone.org to see what their persuasion on this is.

That propitiation in Romans 3 means mercy seat is precisely what GES is saying. The proper translation of the phrase I'm talking about is "mercy seat by his blood, through faith."

 

[Guido]

That is an Eternally Fatal Mistake, which excludes CONVERSION from a dead state of sin, to Eternal Life that Only God Quickens to.

God imputes righteousness to whoever believes That's what Romans says.

 

[Guido]

God imputes righteousness to whoever believes. That's what Romans says.

Psalm 119:1-5

Aleph
Blessed are those whose way is blameless,
Who walk in the Law of the LORD.

Blessed are those who comply with His testimonies,
And seek Him with all their heart.

They also do no injustice;
They walk in His ways.

You have ordained Your precepts,
That we are to keep them diligently.

Oh that my ways may be established
To keep Your statutes!​

Jesus taught we should make disciples, teaching them (the disciples) all that He had commanded.

Some claim we do not need to heed Christ's commands, nor to even teach them to others, in fact we should teach that we do not need to even strive to follow Christ. But as for me and my house, we will follow the Lord.

There's no point in making disciples of people who are going to hell. Being his disciple does not guarantee you entrance into Heaven. Believing in Him does.

Of course we should obey Christ and of course we should teach others too, but only after they've believed.

 

[Alan Gross]

God imputes righteousness to whoever believes That's what Romans says.

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Sin must be acknowledged and dealt with. The Law of the Word of God brings the sinner to a CONVICTION, as a Schoolmaster, by hearing the word of God, prior to being Given Repentance of their sin and agreement that God is Right in CONDEMNING them, for sin. The Twin Doctrines of Repentance and Faith are The New Birth that Quickens the dead sinner to Salvation.

There is no, "believe-quickening" that a Spiritually dead sinner can perform in their own dead state.

"You hath HE QUICKENED who WERE DEAD."

The deceitfully dead heart has had to be changed, by God, FIRST.

10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness"

The heart that has been under The Eternal Word of God, Convicted, and Changed, by God.

Jesus is The Savior. Not a wretched, wicked, undone, and without hope. Dead. Ungodly.

16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.

17 For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “ The righteous will live by faith.”

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.…

The Gospel Reveals the Wrath of God of the ungodly being Poured Out on Jesus.

The Gospel Reveals sin and the need for a Savior for the, otherwise, Eternally lost.

You have to be "lost" before you can be "saved".

There is no "believe-quickening" that a Spiritually dead sinner does.

God Quickens the dead to Eternal Life and then Gives the sinner belief.

"Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." James 1:18

 

[Guido]

Sorry. I said something dumb.

 

[Guido]

Also, I have to finish reading a book before I can adequately debate on this subject. I have a book on Free Grace Theology, and I know nothing in it. So I have to read it.

 

[Alan Gross]

Saved from what? Hell? Intellectually "believing" that one doesn't "want to go to hell" and "believing", mentally that a historical figure "saved" them from it, does not deal with that individual's personal sin-quiltyness before a Holy God Who Gave His Son to DIE. Are they condemned by the fact that THEIR sin Placed Jesus on the cross?

The sinner is ungodly, just as Abraham was, and dead, without strength, as a dependant of Adam.

"When we were without strength Christ died for the ungodly.

You have to be "lost" before you can be "saved".

There is no "believe-quickening" that a Spiritually dead sinner does.

God Quickens the dead to Eternal Life and then Gives the sinner belief.

Have you ever been "lost"?

 

[Van]

There's no point in making disciples of people who are going to hell. Being his disciple does not guarantee you entrance into Heaven. Believing in Him does.

Of course we should obey Christ and of course we should teach others too, but only after they've believed.

Jesus said we should make disciples, and you say there is no point in making disciples "of people who are going to hell." But no one suggested such an effort. Thus your view is unbiblical nonsense. We are to teach believers all that Jesus commanded, and therefore they should strive to follow them.

 

[Van]

GES does not deny substitutionary atonement; they affirm it.

If substitutionary atonement is false, then no one paid for your sins. Therefore, since you are a sinner, are all your sins are unpaid for, and since no one qualifies for eternal life through the law, you are straight on your way to hell, without any hope.

All who've ever believed that John 3:16 is true at one time have received everlasting life the moment they believed. Believing any one of the promises in John 3:16 about eternal life, ought, in my opinion, result in eternal life in the believer. I would have to double check the articles on faithalone.org to see what their persuasion on this is.

That propitiation in Romans 3 means mercy seat is precisely what GES is saying. The proper translation of the phrase I'm talking about is "mercy seat by his blood, through faith."

Why use "substitutionary atonement" rather than Penal Substitutionary Atonement, as if there is no distinction between them.

PSA is false doctrine, a Trojan Horse for Limited Atonement, claiming Christ died only for the specific sins of specific individuals chosen before creation.​

Since Christ bought those to be saved and those never to be saved (2 Peter 2:1) then Jesus did indeed die as a ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:6.

And apparently you cannot link to the article that says GES supports PSA.

All I found were ambiguous statements, so vague either view could be supported.

 

[Guido]

Why use "substitutionary atonement" rather than Penal Substitutionary Atonement, as if there is no distinction between them.

PSA is false doctrine, a Trojan Horse for Limited Atonement, claiming Christ died only for the specific sins of specific individuals chosen before creation.​

Since Christ bought those to be saved and those never to be saved (2 Peter 2:1) then Jesus did indeed die as a ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:6.

And apparently you cannot link to the article that says GES supports PSA.

All I found were ambiguous statements, so vague either view could be supported.

It's in the same beliefs page you quoted; you omitted it from your quote.

 

[Van]

It's in the same beliefs page you quoted; you omitted it from your quote.

Please quote it, as I expect it does not say what you claim.
Here is what you said: "I just found an article from faith alone/GES saying they consider penal substitution a fundamental free grace doctrine.

 

[JamesL]

I think I ended up reading a different thread than what was started.

Zane Hodges, GES, Free Grace, etc....right?

 

[gb93433]

So now, the real problem has to do with two things.

1) Whether they really don't believe in Penal Substitutionary Atonement. If they do, can someone please correct me?

2) What the precising meaning of the phrase "Propitiation through faith in his blood" means. Since I only read the KJV, I have a serious problem interpreting this phrase the way it is written in the KJV. Zane Hodges renders "a mercyseat in his blood to be received by faith." But I think the KJV has it right.

I would suggest that Jesus' death on the cross cannot be explained by just expiation or propitiation but rather both combined. The problem is what word would we use?

 

[Van]

I would suggest that Jesus' death on the cross cannot be explained by just expiation or propitiation but rather both combined. The problem is what word would we use?

There is no difficulty, Christ's sacrifice provides the ransom for all, those to be saved and those never to be saved. Thus His death provides the means of reconciliation (which if obtained results in salvation). The key is to accept that believers must receive the reconciliation, and discard the unbiblical belief in automatic reconciliation when a person puts dead or lip service faith in Christ. It is God who either credits a person's faith as righteousness, or not. And if not, they do not "automatically" receive reconciliation.

 

[Guido]

There is no difficulty, Christ's sacrifice provides the ransom for all, those to be saved and those never to be saved. Thus His death provides the means of reconciliation (which if obtained results in salvation). The key is to accept that believers must receive the reconciliation, and discard the unbiblical belief in automatic reconciliation when a person puts dead or lip service faith in Christ. It is God who either credits a person's faith as righteousness, or not. And if not, they do not "automatically" receive reconciliation.

"And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform, and therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."