Featured Free will makes God appear impotent.

Ohhhhhhh Boz.....don't even try....just use ignore.:BangHead:

I'm telling you for your own good.....and his as well. Don't enguage.

 

I've thought about it. It is like talking to a wall. Actually the wall might be better.

I respond mostly so that others who are actually seeking for answers to this topic will see both sides clearly and not be persuaded by his false teaching.

Of course this may be moot since he has openly put Calvinists under the anathema of Galatians 1 in another thread, which I assume is ban worthy. If not, it ought to be.

 

That is not contradictory to anything I've said. I would agree 100% that God's word draws us and even excites a desire for salvation in our hearts. I wouldn't even know about heaven and eternal life if it were not for God's word, and neither would you.

That's a ridiculous assumption on your part. Not everybody listens and learns.

Look, kids go to school, they hear the same teaching from the teacher, they are provided the same learning materials. Some kids listen and learn and make an "A" on their report card. Other kids do not listen and goof off in class, they make a "D" on their report card.

God will teach anyone who is willing to listen to him, but many will not listen, just like many kids will not listen and learn in school.

So, your assumption is ridiculous.

I have a serious problem? You do not see how ridiculous your assumptions are.

No I haven't. Those who come to Jesus were taught by the Father. But teaching takes two persons, the student and the teacher, and each plays a role. The teacher teaches, but the student must listen to learn.

By your thinking, every kid in school would make straight "As" simply because the teacher spoke to them. You have to listen to learn.

Wrong. John 3:3 is not saying a person cannot understand the gospel without being born again, it is saying no one will go to heaven unless they are born again. If you read two verses later, Jesus says the same thing with different words.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So, you have listened to a misinterpretation of John 3:3 which has caused you to err.

No, it means you cannot possibly believe what you do not know. If you had never heard that Jesus was the Son of God who died for your sins on the cross and rose from the dead after three days you could not possibly believe it. But once you hear this message you have the choice of believing it or rejecting it.

I could promise to send you $100 if you PM me your address. My simply telling you that enables you to believe me if you want. You could send me your address and put me to the test. That is what believing is.

Or you could choose to believe I am full of hot air and not send me your address.

You don't need to be supernaturally regenerated to believe me, you were born with that ability. You trust people all the time. When you buy a can of Campbell's Soup you are believing and trusting it is safe to eat. You are taking their word that it is Chicken Noodle soup in the can and not some poisonous substance that could kill you. That is believing. That is trusting. It is a normal ability all people have.

But if you heard a report on TV that someone had been injecting poison into cans of Campbell's Soup in your area, you might be afraid to buy this soup for awhile. You would choose not to trust this brand until you were sure it was safe again. No magic required.

Absolutely false. The word regeneration literally means to be made "alive again". This is what Jesus said of the prodigal son TWICE in Luke 15;

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

When we learn the law and sin, we spiritually die. This is what Paul clearly teaches in Romans chapter 7. He said he was "alive without the law once" but when the commandment came, sin revived and he "died". This is spiritual death. It means to be separated from God by sin, to be condemned, like a man locked up on death row awaiting final execution.

The moment we trust Jesus we are washed clean of all our sins. We are now "alive again". We are no longer separated from God by sin.

Calvinism has redefined the word regeneration and you have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker.

Post was too long and had to be divided in two. End of part 1, please see part 2.

 

Part 2

It is not irresistible, the scriptures say many times that God sincerely calls men but they would not listen and come.

Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Irresistible Grace is utterly false doctrine easily refuted by much scripture.

I understand Calvinism quite well, in fact, I think I understand it far better than you do. That is why I REJECT it. :thumbs:

Again, how did you get saved? Did Jesus appear to you personally like he did with Saul (Paul)? Or did you hear the gospel from a preacher like the rest of us?

It does not say that at all. It simply says that every man who comes to Jesus was taught by the Father. It doesn't say every man whom God attempted to teach irresistibly heard and listened. Many men refuse to listen and learn from God.

You are reading Irresistible Grace into John 6:44 when it is not there.

All who come to Jesus were given by the Father- absolutely true.

All who are drawn will come to Jesus- absolutely false. You cannot show one word of scripture to support this, because it doesn't exist.

Again, you are reading into scripture what is not there. You can insist a thousand times that everyone who is drawn will come, and you will be in complete error a thousand times. That is NOT what the scriptures say.

I didn't twist anything, and I showed were Albert Barnes a noted Calvinist theologian said the exact same thing.

Verse 45 is explaining how men are drawn to Jesus. It does not say they are irresistibly called or that they are regenerated to come to Jesus, it says they are TAUGHT by the Father. And how does God teach us? With his WORD, with the holy scriptures.

I try to answer your posts, but they are so long I have to split it in two. They only let you write ten thousand characters. I am betting I will have to split this one in two as well.

The word of God IS supernatural, and the word of God certainly has the power to break and convict the hardest heart. I would never deny that.

But man has to do the believing, God does not believe for you. And God does not have to regenerate you to have the ability to believe, you were born with that ability. But no man can believe what he does not know. No man is born knowing of the true God or the gospel of Jesus Christ, and therefore no man could come to Jesus. We must be TAUGHT the gospel by the word of God, and this enables us to either believe the gospel or reject it.

Again, this post was too long and would not post. I will have to divide it in two for it to post.

 

I could say the same thing of you, that it is like talking to a wall.

Look, you have bought Calvinist doctrine hook, line, and sinker. You cannot read scripture without inserting your Calvinist presuppositions into it. You are completely oblivious to your own bias.

As for Galatians 1, I didn't write that, Paul did. If that scripture bothers you, maybe you should reexamine your doctrine.

But one thing is for certain, we are NOT preaching the same gospel. Non-Cals and Arminians preach that Jesus died for ALL men, five-point Calvinists preach that Jesus only died for SOME men.

That is not the same gospel. Somebody has to be wrong.

 

Frankly, your last response to me isn't worth replying to. It's literally the same repetition of the errors you have posted for page after page.

This however...

I am not oblivious to my bias. I am very careful to try my best to avoid reading with bias. Of course no one does that perfectly but I try. You again fail to remember, or believe, that I came to affirm Calvinism by reading the Bible carefully and thoroughly while I was an Arminian. My bias was against it, yet the scriptures were so clear.

I never said I have a problem with Galatians 1. Again, you display your basic inability to understand simple English, no wonder you don't understand your Bible.

What I do have a problem with is your foolish, and evil IMO, attempt to claim that Calvinists are condemned under that curse.

It's amazing how you can pack so much error into just a couple sentences. Do all non-cals and Arminians preach the same gospel then by your definition? Some say the gospel gives the spiritual gifts others say it doesn't. Some Arminians claim you can lose your salvation, do they preach the same gospel according to you, as those who believe in eternal security?

 

I told you the truth, but you refuse to consider other views.

Your posts are FULL of Calvinist bias. Over and over you repeat the error that everyone who is drawn comes. I have seen this error from numerous Calvinists. "The Biblicist" would go for pages and pages insisting all that are drawn come. NO THEY DO NOT.

You need to take off those Calvinist glasses and read scripture for what it actually says. John 6:45 does not say men are supernaturally regenerated to come to Jesus, it says they are TAUGHT. Why can't you understand this??

I did not say that. I said that ONE of us must be wrong. We are preaching a different gospel. I preach that Jesus died for ALL men. Five-point Calvinists preach that Jesus died for SOME men. That is not the same message.

I even posted a humorous (to me) video from Youtube demonstrating the five-point Calvinist gospel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1ckoCBtXvU

This video is sarcasm, but it's 100% true. The best a five-point Calvinist can do is to preach that Jesus MIGHT love you, and that Jesus MIGHT have died for you.

How can you believe a complete uncertainty? How can you have confidence in a "maybe" gospel??

"Maybe" Jesus died for me????????? Not very assuring.

The gospel is what Paul said in 1 Cor 15:3-7, but especially verses 3 and 4;

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul preached that Jesus died for "OUR" sins. A five-point Calvinist cannot preach this message to unbelievers.

The best a five-point Calvinist can do is tell folks Jesus "might" have died for their sins.

That is not good news. There is nothing good or comforting in that message. That message leaves a person in complete doubt and jeopardy as to their eternal future.

We are not preaching the same gospel, one of us has to be wrong.

 

Again:
You again fail to remember, or believe, that I came to affirm Calvinism by reading the Bible carefully and thoroughly while I was an Arminian. My bias was against it, yet the scriptures were so clear.

Your post is full of your bad interpretation an eisegesis not truth.

If it's full of "Calvinist bias", it is because the scriptures are full of Calvinist bias. John 6, from v35 to the end of the chapter, is about explaining their unbelief. They do not believe because they will not come to the Son, they will not come to the Son because they are not given to him and they are not given because they are not drawn. Those who do believe in the Son are given to him by the Father and those people are infallibly drawn by him. There simply is no other way to understand the text without tearing it apart.

I do indeed read the scripture for what it says. Unlike you I do not have to jump all over the Bible to support my system, nor do I have to change Jesus' words.

You said one of us must be wrong, and then quoted Galatians 1:8,9, saying "someone is in trouble!" So yes you did say that, maybe not in those words but your meaning is plain.

Now I see the problem, you get your theology from Youtube...

It is no maybe gospel. Whoever will call on the Lord will be saved.

Do you really think that is a perfect, word for word repetition of what Paul preached to the Corinthians when he first arrived there? Wow...

Again, you display your complete ignorance on that which you rail against.

 

I have not read all 31 pages however.

That in bold above is the key. That is how God created us. God knows what God was doing from the beginning. Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

God created Adam and took the woman from him. God created him with the following nature.

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren. James 1:12-16

What was the lust of Adam relative to Eve who was deceived by the serpent, Satan, the devil that resulted in both being dead, in trespass and sin. Adam by his created nature reacted exactly as God knew he would. Why?

And darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Before it was said, "let there be light," before Adam was created in the image of his creator, a covenant was made. A covenant between God and his Son who would come into the world subject to the wages of sin, death. Because of this God had also before the world began made the promise of hope of eternal life for this Son.

Who is the only man born of woman who has inherited the following?

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. James 1:12

Now any other man who receives this (the crown of life) will receive it because he is elected of God to so receive because it will only come to him through the one who has already received it and not because of anything he believes and or does.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

That which is born of the flesh (Adam and Jesus the Christ) is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit (Jesus to date the firstborn) is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:6,7

The first man Adam and the last Adam.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 Cor 15:45,46

We love him because he first loved us. 1 John 4:19 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Rom 5:5

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:6


God knows what God was going to do through the Christ.

 

Like so many other Calvinists, you got saved as an Arminian. Wow.

Then you studied Piper, and MacArthur, OOPS, I mean the Bible and became a Calvinist. Right.

Explain HOW my interpretations are eisegesis. Anybody can make a claim without support.

When you tried to claim everyone who is drawn comes, I showed scripture in Proverbs 1 and Matthew 22 that shows men can refuse to come when God calls them. See, I present EVIDENCE for my view, and against yours. You just make unsupported claims.

You are presupposing your own argument. There absolutely is another interpretation, and I have given it. Men are drawn to Jesus when they are TAUGHT by the Father. And how are they taught? By the word of God, by the scriptures.

Did you ever notice how Jesus refuted the Pharisees? He "jumped" all over the scriptures like I do. Did you notice how he answered Satan in the wilderness when he was tempted? He "jumped" all over the scriptures like I do.

And I do not change the definitions of words. Regeneration means "re" = over or again, "generation" = to make alive, give life to. The word regeneration means to make alive AGAIN. It does not mean to illuminate or teach, or to cause to understand, or to draw. It is YOU that is redefining the word regeneration.

Correct, you and I do not preach the same gospel, so one of us must be preaching error. One of us must be preaching a false gospel. That is exactly what I said, and exactly what I meant.

That video actually makes a good point, what kind of gospel says, "Maybe Jesus loves you" and "Maybe Jesus died for you"??

How do you depend on a complete uncertainty? How do you put your trust in a "maybe"?

You just don't get it.

No, no, no. If Jesus did not die for you, you can call on him all day long and you will not be saved. Paul shows this concept in 1 Corinthians 15;

1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

If Jesus did not in fact and reality rise from the dead, then our faith is vain and we will all die in our sins. Believing Jesus rose from the dead does not make it so.

Likewise, if Jesus did not personally die for you, then your faith is vain and you will die in your sins. Your faith does not determine reality.

You could believe a gun is empty and put it to your head and pull the trigger, and if it is loaded you will blow your brains out.

You seem to believe the Atonement is determined by your belief. :laugh:

Yes, I believe Paul looked unbelievers right in the eye and said, "Jesus died for OUR sins". Yes, that is exactly what I believe.

Now that is something you can hang your hat on. That is definite. A solid rock.

Right, I am ignorant.

 

Here's Spurgeon's thoughts on that, infinitely more eloquent and precise than I could be:

Actually never read anything of Piper's until after becoming convinced of the DoG, and I still don't like MacArthur. Nice try though...

You assume your doctrine and read it into the text, irrelevant that the text disagrees. You literally go as far as turning Jesus' words on its head in order to support your false doctrine.

Right... except for all the scripture I have continually dropped on you, in this thread and others.

Proverbs 1 has precisely NOTHING to do with this discussion. There the one calling and being refused is the wisdom, not God calling in order to give salvation.

Matthew 22 has been explained to you at least 3 times. Yet you refuse to read or understand even the supremely clear meaning of the text.

So again you are back to your idea that the teaching in John 6:45 is being taught the scriptures by another believer, despite Jesus' statement to the contrary. That puts you in the impossible situation of affirming that everyone who is taught the Bible will be saved; because what did Jesus say was the result of learning and hearing from the Father?

Jhn 6:45 NASB - "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.​

What Bible do you have!? Jesus rebuked Satan by quoting Deuteronomy 6 and 8, that is far from jumping all over scripture.

Mat 4:4 NASB - But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"​

Deu 8:3 NASB - "He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.​

Mat 4:7 NASB - Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'"​

Deu 6:16 NASB - "You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested Him at Massah.​

Mat 4:10 NASB - Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"​

Deu 6:13-14 NASB - "You shall fear only the LORD your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name. You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you,"​

You do actually. In ignoring that John 6 says the Father himself draws, and teaches the sinner, you say it is really the church/other Christians, thus essentially you define the Father in John 6 as the church. But what I was actually pointing to was your repeated flipping of Jesus' words. Jesus said one thing, you turned it completely upside down.

And you mentioned that in reference to Galatians 1:8,9. That means you believe I and my other Calvinist friends, are all under the anathema of that text.

Nonsense. I can and have and do plainly tell people that if they will repent and call on Christ to save them then they will be saved. It is a certainty that those who truly believe will be saved.

If Jesus did not die for them then they will never call! That is literally the WHOLE point of John 6. Again, you show you have no understanding of Calvinism or the scripture.

Honestly, your arguments get more and more absurd as you continue to lose these debates.

1 Cor 15 is irrelevant to this discussion.

Ignoring the stupidity; What do you think actually happened in the atonement?

Well that's absurd.

 

This guy is a catalyst .....nothing more.

 

Infinitely eloquent and precise? Wow, talk about man worship.

Right.

Again, unsupported claims from you.

All you have done is parrot the Reformed view of John 6.

False.

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Trust me, if you receive the Holy Spirit you receive life.

No, you have given a ridiculous Calvinist eisegesis of Matthew 22. Jesus is clearly teaching that God the Father sends out men to call people to Jesus and that they refuse.

Again, did Jesus appear to you personally when you got saved? Did the Father come down and speak to you personally when you got saved? Is this how you were drawn?

Tell us of your fantastic experience.

Ridiculous. Men preach the "word of God". It is not their words, but the words that God the Father gave holy prophets who recorded them for us. When a preacher preaches John 3:16, he is preaching the words of God the Father.

Fact is, Jesus quoted probably a dozen or more of the OT books. He "jumped" around as you call it.

It is you being ridiculous, when men preach the scriptures they are teaching the words of God the Father. I didn't write the Bible, and neither did your pastor, holy men wrote down the exact words God the Father told them through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This is exactly what Jesus is referring to in John 6:45. Very few men in the entire history of mankind get personal revelation from God himself as Paul did, or the OT prophets did. That is the super-rare exception, not the rule.

That is God's job. I don't say who is saved and who is not. All I can say is that one of us is not preaching the gospel given in the scriptures.

If Limited Atonement is true, then that is a lie. The best you can do is tell them if they believe they MIGHT be saved. It all depends on whether Jesus died for them. If Jesus did not die for them they cannot be saved no matter what they believe.

Your faith does not determine if Jesus died for you. If you are not one of the elect, you are flat out of luck, no matter what you believe.

Where do you get that from? There will be many folks who call Jesus "Lord, Lord" who are not saved.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There are going to be "many" folks who believe they are saved but are not. It is only those who do the will of his Father that will be saved.

Do you know what the will of the Father is??

It is absolutely relevant. Your faith does not determine what is true or reality. If Limited Atonement is true, there is a very good chance Jesus did not die for you. If so, your faith is vain and you will perish in your sins.

Just because you claim Jesus died for you does not make it so. Did you see your name on a list somewhere?

Or was this something God the Father personally told you? Tell us all about it.

Jesus died for ALL men. That is how I know for a fact Jesus died for me. Unless Jesus died for all men you have no way to know if Jesus died for you.

In fact, if Jesus only died for some men, the greater probability is that he did not die for you. Jesus said MANY enter in at destruction, only FEW find life.

Good luck.

 

other then Jesus, has there evr been ANYONE that merited approval by God by their good works, by being able to keep the Law then?

And how can a sinner be made right/justified before Holy God by keeping the Law, as you claim is a possibility, when God said that none shall ever get saved by that method?

 

No, the only person who has ever MERITED eternal life is Jesus.

But that does not mean all persons have sinned. Babies that die in the womb have never sinned, they are sinless.

I did not claim that as a possibility. I said men are able to obey God's laws. Can you tell the truth? If so, you are able to obey God's law. Can you be honest and return a lost wallet? If so, then you have the ability to obey God's law.

Why can't you understand this?

Now, the fact that you have the ability to obey God's law and tell the truth does not guarantee you will always tell they truth.

I am able to turn down that third slice of pizza, but many times I don't.

You do not seem able to distinguish between what people are ABLE to do with what they ACTUALLY do. They are not always the same.

I am ABLE to jump off a tall building and kill myself, but I have chosen never to do that.

You keep thinking real hard and maybe you will come to understand this. I know it is difficult for you.

 

Quite the opposite from my perspective. I agree with Tozer who wrote:

"God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, 'What doest thou?' Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so." - A.W. Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy: The Attributes of God

 

One more thing Willis...

Which of the two examples below is more impressive to you?

1. A Chess player who ensures victory by playing both sides of the board...determining his "opponents" moves by the same hand he determines his own.

OR

2. A Chess Master who is so wise, so good, so fast, so powerful, so insightful, so masterful in every way that he soundly defeats each and every opponent who attempts to defeat him.

I suggest the first example is very impotent, yet it best represents the Calvinistic/deterministic view of God's governance over the world. Thus, your view of God is more impotent than ours...

 

Actually I disagree. I believe the second example more closely represent the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace. The first example looks like more like Arminian doctrine, the player can decide whenever he chooses who wins!

A very intelligent man is has said, commenting on quantum physics: God does not roll dice!

 

I agree with Skandelon. The deterministic view makes God look weak and cowardly, he has to "fix" the game to win, like a criminal.

The non-deterministic view makes God look like a true champion.

 

I do not have a problem with free will for I believe because of the nature of which he was created his lust will more often than not trump his free will and he will sin. That was what happened to Adam. Adam, who brought death to all men.

That is what Paul speaks of in Romans 7 so he asks, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" the nature in which Adam was created.

And as we have borne the image (nature) of the earthy, we shall also bear the image (nature) of the heavenly. 1 Cor 15:49

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, (The nature of the resurrected Jesus of Nazareth.) having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 2:4