Featured Free will makes God appear impotent.

And as for trees Willis, Jesus taught that you can determine which kind of tree you are and which kind of fruit you bear.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Jesus said here to "Either" (option) "make" (ability) the tree good and it's fruit good, "or else" (option) "make" (ability) the tree corrupt and it's fruit corrupt.

So, Jesus did not at all teach that you are born an evil tree that must bear evil fruit as you falsely teach.

But I guess the doctrines of Calvinism have become more important to you than scripture, right Willis?

 

You are doing just fine Wes......................keep up the good fight for the faith once delivered unto the saints. :thumbs:

 

NONE can be justified before God by the keeping of the Law, it is an impossibility!

Only God Himself, Jesus, could and did do just that!

And the Bible states that we as sinners are at war with God, cannot be tamed, will not seek Him, walk in darkness and in our own ways...

how can that be describing those to whom the law will set free?

Apostle paul after he got saved was not able to keep the law by himself, how can unsaved do that?

 

You forgot the part that ALL apart from jesus are masters to their Sin natures, that all of us went and keep going astray!

Tou really got to get rid of being a follower of Charles Finny theology!

 

I know this is several days late. Sorry for just now responding.

For the love of all things holy... :BangHead:

Nevermind.

That was actually from his commentary on John 6:45. That's actually all he said since obviously his system of Arminianism, like yours, cannot fully come to grips with what Jesus says here.

Again you turn the verse around. It says:

Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me​

NOT:

Everyone who comes...has heard and learned.​

There really is a difference.

You cannot accept the scripture as written so you twist it around. You are still accurate in that everyone who comes has truly heard and learned, but you cannot affirm the opposite, which is actually what Jesus asserts. Everyone that hears and learns will come. Not a single one who hears will ever fail to come. You cannot account for that in your system.

Yes and that is Romans 10 territory, speaking about gospel preaching. John 6 is not dealing with that. I know you deny it, and you can continue denying it all day and night, but the fact is that John 6 is dealing with the internal and supernatural drawing of the sinner to the Son by the Father. This is complimentary to gospel preaching, the occur together, but they are not the same.

No one is claiming that and you know it. Stop your dishonesty.

Romans 10 is speaking of the practical outward experience of preaching the gospel. The sinner absolutely must hear the gospel. How can they call on Christ if they have never heard of him? That is the practical question seen in Romans 10. John 6 explains how the sinner comes to see their need for Christ and how they are brought by God to the Son. Two sides of the same coin. One external one internal. The passages themselves show that they are not speaking of precisely the same thing, even though both are speaking of conversion.

Jhn 6:37, 39, 44-45, 65 NASB - "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. ... "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. ... "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. ... And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

John 6 shows that this drawing by the Father, giving to the Son and learning from the Father are all expressions or descriptions of the same event, the inward call to salvation. And look at the language used referring to those drawn, taught and given:

"All ... will come."
"I lose nothing..."
Everyone who has heard... comes to Me."

It is clear as day that every single person that is drawn by the Father will come to Christ. They all will be saved, and they will all be preserved to the end of the age. Not a single one is lost.

Contrast that to Paul's point in Romans 10:

Rom 10:14-16 NASB - How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"​

Clearly the preaching of the gospel is the God ordained means to bring sinners to salvation. Faith comes through hearing the word of Christ. However he explicitly says that "not all heed the good news." Yes I understand the context is in regard to Israel's rejection of the gospel in accordance with prophecy, but that is irrelevant to this point. Not all who hear the gospel will respond in saving faith.

So we have in John 6 the point that all who are drawn are given to the Son, they all respond with saving faith and none are lost. Romans 10 says not all who hear will believe. If you believe that John 6 and Romans 10 are both speaking about knowledge given through teaching and preaching then you have to pit Paul against Jesus and say that Jesus was wrong. The correct understanding is to see that while both are discussing salvation they are looking at it from two different angles, the God-view in John 6 and the man-view in Rom 10.

Matthew 22 helps to see the distinction:

Mat 22:14 NASB - "For many are called (Romans 10), but few are chosen (John 6)."​

God does not call all people in the way John 6 uses the word. What is the result of the call in John 6? Salvation. I said it before, a consistent, honest reading of John 6 leaves you with either particular redemption of universalism, that's it.

That is laughable coming from you when you have consistently twisted the scriptures and forced them to support literally the opposite of what it actually says.

So in other words, predestined and election and foreknow are all really meaningless terms since God actually didn't choose anyone, he is simply responding to the creation.

And who said that? If you make a post and I respond to each point, then naturally the posts will get longer. That's common sense. Your complaint is silly. Act like an adult not a child.

I actually thought about reporting this post as you seem to be trying to identify my beliefs with that of the false prophet. You twist my words and make an evil accusation.

Not in the sense of the drawing in John 6. That drawing from the Father infallibly results in salvation.

You simply cannot let the Word of God say what it actually says can you?

Tit 2:11 NASB - For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,​

Ah yes. How horrible it is to have a God who actually accomplishes his desires and does all that he pleases without any hindrance from his creation.

:thumbsup:

 

Thanks Steaver. Have you noticed these guys never address the scripture I post to refute them?

This is how Calvinists argue, they completely ignore any and all scripture that refutes their view, and there is volumes, and just attack the person.

As for being banned, they will do their best to have me banned, this is how they handle persons that disagree with them. Oh well, it's better than being burned at the stake. :thumbs:

 

Who said man can be justified by keeping the law? Not me. Once again you imply falsehood about others. Very sinful, and you do this over and over again. You should be ashamed.

You figured this out all by yourself? Good for you Yeshua1. Now if you could learn to be honest and quit misrepresenting what others say and believe you would really be doing well. I won't hold my breath on that though, you have shown a pattern and habit of misrepresenting others over and over again. Despicable.

The scriptures do say we are at enmity with God. But the scriptures do not teach we are unable to seek God, in fact, the scriptures show many men who did seek God.

2 Chr 26:3 Sixteen years old was Uzziah when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty and two years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Jecoliah of Jerusalem.
4 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father Amaziah did.
5 And he sought God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding in the visions of God: and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him to prosper.

King Uzziah sought God, proving your view to be complete error, but you will repeat this falsehood over and over again anyway, as you prefer Calvinism over scripture.

What are you talking about here?

Where does Paul say he was not able to keep the law? There is a huge difference between saying a man does not keep the law versus no man is able to keep the law.

Paul said that God will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to resist, but will with the temptation make a way for us to escape it.

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you teach. Paul taught that we can resist sin.

So, again you teach one falsehood after another.

 

YOU have repeated over and over again how OT saints kept the law, were perfect, that man can chose to live for God and not sin...

You deny that we are bound in sin, that it has mastery over us, until made alive again in Christ

And yo quote paul to show that we can resist sinning, but that was speaking to the SAVED only. correct?u

 

OK.

If that's all he said it hardly proves your point.

OK, every man that has heard and learned from the Father comes to Jesus. It doesn't say every man that has been regenerated. Nowhere in all the word of God does it say a man must be supernaturally enabled to come to Jesus. The scriptures simply say a man must HEAR of Jesus to believe (Rom 10:14). Scripture says faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17)

Hearing the gospel message enables you to believe it or reject it. You cannot believe what you have not heard and do not know, but once you learn the gospel by hearing the preaching of God's word, now you are enabled to either believe it, or reject it.

I am not twisting anything, faith comes by HEARING the word of God. The scriptures do not say "Faith comes by regeneration". That is what you teach, and it is complete falsehood, the scriptures NEVER say this. You can't show it.

No it's not, you are simply ASSUMING your doctrine is true. There is not one word in John 6 that says a man has to be regenerated to believe, or come, or hear, or whatever. Jesus does say that no man can come to him unless the Father draws him, but then Jesus says every man that has been TAUGHT by the Father shall come to him. He doesn't say REGENERATED.

You do not have a leg to stand on no matter how much you insist you are correct.

I disagree, I believe Calvinism implies that men MUST have some mystical, supernatural revelation before they are able to understand or believe the gospel.

You may not say that directly, but that is what it amounts to. It is smoke and mirrors. This is the ancient mystical religions of Babylon that Rome introduced into Christianity. Calvinism picked it right up from the RCC.

Who are you trying to convince? That argument is a bunch of baloney. Paul NEVER mentions the need of a supernatural enabling to understand or believe the gospel. In fact, Paul said that from a child Timothy had "known" the holy scriptures, which were "able" to make him "wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus".

It is knowledge that enables any man to believe. Hearing the gospel, or reading it in the scriptures is all it takes to enable any man to trust Jesus and be saved.

No they don't, you are reading into scripture what is not being said.

False, many people are drawn who do not come. Read Matthew chapter 22.

Not everybody listens to God, just as many kids do not listen in school and fail.

It does not say all who are drawn are given to the Father, you need to go back and read more carefully.

It does not say these people received a different call, they received the same call as everyone else. The reason they were not chosen is because they did not listen and come when they were called.

You cannot show an example of me twisting scripture. Show it.

God chose those whom he foresaw would believe on Jesus.

Well, you keep making longer and longer posts. This very post is a perfect example. I had to cut this post in two because it was too long.

 

Part 2

You don't seem to understand your own doctrine. According to Calvinism, there are two calls. One is just words, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. A man can hear them and nothing happens.

But the other call is supernatural, it performs a supernatural work on the man, completely converting his very nature. Before he hated God, could not possibly will to come to Jesus, could not truly understand scripture. Now, miraculously he loves God, he has an irresistible compulsion to trust Jesus, and suddenly he can understand the gospel.

That doesn't sound like some supernatural revelation to you? It sure does to me. It is no different than Joseph Smith's or even Mohammed's claimed revelations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_first_revelation

Actually, Calvinism describes regeneration as similar to Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus, where he heard and understood the Lord Jesus speak to him, but the other men simply heard a sound. There you go, Calvinism's "effectual call" in a nutshell.

Now, if telling you the truth makes you want to attempt to get me banned, then I say you have some real issues.

What is horrible is that is not what the scriptures say. It is man-made doctrine. You are reading into scripture what is not said.

 

I showed you scripture where men obeyed God. I showed Enoch, and Noah, and Job, and John the Baptist's parents.

Your issue isn't with me, your issue is with the word of God.

Didn't scripture say that John the Baptist's parents both "walked in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless"?

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Sure sounds like they were able to obey the law to me.

Baloney, again you falsely misrepresent me. I have repeatedly said that all men sin, and the moment they do they are "sold to sin" This is sin being personified in the scriptures. The moment we knowingly and willingly sin we are sold to sin and he becomes our master. No matter what we do, good or bad, sin pays one wage, and that is death.

And the only escape from sin as our master is death. And this is exactly how we are made free from sin, when we trust Jesus we are baptized into his body and his death. We died "with him" to sin. Sin no longer holds dominion over us.

I have been saying this for years and YOU KNOW IT. So, it is not a mistake that you misrepresent me, it is INTENTIONAL. You should be banned, you do this over and over again to anyone who disagree with you. Shameful.

Correct, but you said that Paul said even saved folks cannot stop sinning.

See, you have changed your tune now, but originally you said that Paul was not able to keep the law after he was saved.

Unlike you, I do not need to misrepresent my opponents to win a debate.

 

was there ANY who ever kept the law without blame other then jesus?

Will there edver be ANY other then jesus have a state of sinless perfection?

And jesus said that sinners apart from Him have Sin as their master, which is by their own very natures, NOT if they decide to sin or not!

 

No, but that does not mean a person cannot obey the law.

Your "all or none" view is error. I used to play baseball when I was a kid. I could not get a hit every time I came to bat, but that did not mean I could not hit the ball at all, I got many hits.

Well, Paul said Jacob and Esau had done no evil in their mother's womb, if they would have died they would have been sinless.

Do babies die in their mother's womb? Yes or no?

Would you care to show where Jesus said this?

God called little children who were sacrificed to idols, "my children"

Eze 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

This scripture contradicts your view. God said little children were "born unto me", and called them "my children".

I think you have been listening to false teachers that have been telling you lies.

You should read your Bible and quit listening to false teachers.

 

Jesus ALONE, of ALL who have ever lived was anle to keep the Law as God demanded, as he is God in the flesh...

Do you deny that only he could have kept the law perfect;y?

And I have never argued against bablies belonging to the lord, as while they are sinners, God chose them to be covered by the shed blood of Jesus Christ on their behalf!

 

Men can obey the law, John the Baptist's parents walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of God blameless. If that is a problem for you, take it up with God, that is what the scriptures say.

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Zacharias and Elisabeth were able to obey the law.

I just showed you scripture that said Zacharias and Elisabeth walked in all the commandments and ordinances of God blameless. What part do you not understand?

Sinners do not belong to the Lord, sinners are enemies of the Lord.

You are also teaching that a person can be saved without faith in Jesus!

And the scriptures show that babies are not sinners (Romans 9:11)

You make one error after another!!!

 

So they did not need Jesus to die for rheir suns, as they were already perfect by obeying the Law?

THAT is to undercut the Cross, and make God to be a liar...

 

You have got to be joking...:smilewinkgrin:

 

Now if you could just find someone who said that...

 

He said that being "taught of God" is that God himself laid the desire for salvation on the heart. That is totally contradictory to everything you've said. Why can you not just admit that this anti-calvinist pastor disagreed with you? It's really not that hard.

Just when I think we are getting somewhere, you contradict yourself within a single breath.

You have repeatedly said that the teaching and learning from the Father in John 6 is hearing the gospel preached. If that is so (it's not) then everyone who hears will come to Jesus and be saved. That is what John 6:45 says, everyone who has learned comes. If that is the case, there is no "enabling to believe or reject" the message, there is only acceptance.

You have a serious problem if you can't see that your position is untenable.

How can you say you aren't twisting anything? You literally flipped Jesus' statement on it's head!

The scripture is clear, we are born again directly by God. This is regeneration correct? God "caused us to be born again" (1 Pet 1:3). Without being born again we cannot even "see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Regeneration is the giving of new, spiritual life and this occurs "when we were dead in our transgressions, [God makes] us alive together with Christ" (Eph 2:5). It is God who acts first. We react and our faith is a reaction to his grace and is even seen as a gift; we have "received a faith of the same kind as [the apostles]" (2 Pet 1:1) and "it is given [to us]... to believe on him" (Phil 1:29).

Even the text you keep quoting defeats your argument. Faith comes through hearing - absolutely! That means it is not within us until then. If faith comes through hearing that means we are not able to have faith until we hear the word of God and therefore it is not something that we can naturally do. It is through the God ordained means of the gospel message that we are born again and receive faith.

Being drawn, given, taught and learning from the Father are all different expressions of what we call regeneration. I don't even know why you brought that up. I never even used the term until this post. I guess you just want to try and muddy the waters as it were and cause confusion to distract from how badly you are doing in this conversation.

Regardless, John 6 is crystal clear that coming to the Son is a direct response to the infallible calling of the Father.

Then you again demonstrate your complete lack of understand of what you rail against.

You read it. You are the one who fails to understand that it is the servants who do the calling here, not the King.

But all those who are called by God in the John 6 meaning of the term will listen and they will all come. That is clear.

You're dreaming.

Jhn 6:37, 44 NASB - "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. ... "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.​

All who come, were given by the Father. No one can come, except he is drawn by the Father. Clear parallelism, one in the positive sense another in the negative. All given will come - all drawn will come.

Here for example:

That is a deliberate twisting of the text 180 degrees.

Scripture?

You'll notice that you are the only one who has made two responses to a post in this thread. Each of my replies has been 1 post. Also, what does it matter? Of course as a conversation goes on there will be more information to consider and therefore longer posts. Stop being silly.

The effectual, inward call of God certainly is supernatural miracle as all of scripture agrees. That does NOT mean in any way that is some sort of visible, manifestation or revelation such as the false prophets of Islam and Mormonism claim. If you believe it is not different then you are truly incapable of understanding.

No one, including me, is trying to get you banned, least of all for telling the truth. First you would have to actually start telling the truth. Secondly, if I reported your post it would be for the purpose of your correction since you wrongly put Calvinism in the same category as the wicked false religions of Mormonism and Islam.