Free will makes God appear impotent.

[Winman]

Quit deflecting...why do people fail to come...you know the answer but don't want to answer it...

Well, I truly do not know why a person would refuse to come to Jesus, in my mind that is the most foolish thing a person could do.

But Jesus said people love darkness, they love their sin and this is why they do not come to him.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Does Jesus say these persons CANNOT come to the light Willis? Yes or No??

The word "rather" in verse 19 implies these persons had a choice. They could have come to the light, but they chose not to.

But it does not say they were UNABLE to come to the light as you falsely teach.

 

[convicted1]

Well, I truly do not know why a person would refuse to come to Jesus, in my mind that is the most foolish thing a person could do.

But Jesus said people love darkness, they love their sin and this is why they do not come to him.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Does Jesus say these persons CANNOT come to the light Willis? Yes or No??

The word "rather" in verse 19 implies these persons had a choice. They could have come to the light, but they chose not to.

But it does not say they were UNABLE to come to the light as you falsely teach.

I have read verses where Jesus said they will not come...I wholeheartedly agree....


Now...why do they love darkness rather than Light?

 

[Winman]

I have read verses where Jesus said they will not come...I wholeheartedly agree....

Now...why do they love darkness rather than Light?

Willis, now you are acting like another annoying poster who asks the same questions over, and over, and over again.

You know the answer, Jesus gave the answer, they love to do evil, therefore they hate the light, because light exposes their evil.

Those who love truth and want to do truth come to Jesus.

This is the age old battle between good and evil, between love of God and love of self. People choose sides. Some choose God and to do good, many more choose to do evil and please self.

Some folks believe there will be a judgment, and that good will be rewarded, and that evil will be punished and so choose good.

Others believe that only the here and now exists, and all that is worthwhile is to please oneself, and personal gain NOW, because there is nothing after death.

What this all proves is that free will does exist, and men have a choice of whether they will serve and obey God, or serve and obey self.

 

[convicted1]

Willis, now you are acting like another annoying poster who asks the same questions over, and over, and over again.

You know the answer, Jesus gave the answer, they love to do evil, therefore they hate the light, because light exposes their evil.

Those who love truth and want to do truth come to Jesus.

This is the age old battle between good and evil, between love of God and love of self. People choose sides. Some choose God and to do good, many more choose to do evil and please self.

Some folks believe there will be a judgment, and that good will be rewarded, and that evil will be punished and so choose good.

Others believe that only the here and now exists, and all that is worthwhile is to please oneself, and personal gain NOW, because there is nothing after death.

What this all proves is that free will does exist, and men have a choice of whether they will serve and obey God, or serve and obey self.

Wes, I'm just trying to get you to dig deeper in the word......

John 3:21...
but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.'(YLT)


But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.(KJV)

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.(NIV)


But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.(ESV)


But he that [a]doeth truth, cometh to the light, that his deeds might be made manifest, that they are wrought according to God.(GNV)

Footnotes:

John 3:21 That is, he that leadeth an honest life, and void of all craft and deceit.
John 3:21 That is, with God, God as it were going before.


Those that come to the Light, Wes, have the works of God working...functioning...within them...regeneration has already occured....that is the only way they can come to that Light they once hated. God has to overcome their hatred of Him...

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, I truly do not know why a person would refuse to come to Jesus, in my mind that is the most foolish thing a person could do.

But that is why sinners do when left by God to their natural states though, as none seek after God, all turned astray, at war against Him, cannot be tamed ertc!

Sinners left to themselves prefer to stay in the dark...

 

[Winman]

But that is why sinners do when left by God to their natural states though, as none seek after God, all turned astray, at war against Him, cannot be tamed ertc!

Sinners left to themselves prefer to stay in the dark...

That's not what Isaiah said;

Isa 58:2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.

This verse says the very opposite of what you just said.

 

[Rippon]

Well, this verse does say if Jesus is raised up he will draw all men unto him, but it does not say all men who are drawn will come.

The word men isn't in the original of John 12:32. But this each and every business is so silly. Even if someone is of the mentality that everybody who has every lived will be drawn to Christ --how could those who have died before Christ be dawn? How could those in Hell be drawn? Logical questions that demand that the verse does not mean each and every person who has ever lived.

OK, this verse says no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, but it does not say that every man that God draws shall come to Jesus.

Now we're back to John 6. In this case verse 44. And of course you are denying the obvious again. All the drawn ones --every single one of them -- are the very same individuals that were given by the Father to Jesus back in verse 37. The people have not changed. The Father draws certain ones. And all of these are then given to the Son. Every single one of the drawn and given will come to Jesus. There is not a scintilla of doubt about it. As I have said --no one drops out. Nobody falls beneath the cracks.

And speaking of giving, look at John 17:2 :

"For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him."

All of the given ones will not be lost --all of them will be raised up at the laast day. See verses 39, 30 and 44.

No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them. And all of them will be raised on the last day. It is certain. Notice "No one can can come." They don't have the ability whatsoever to come to Jesus on their own. The Father has to enable them to come to Jesus. See verse 65 :

"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

I am not denying scripture at all. None of these verses say all men who are drawn shall come. It is not there. You are reading that into scripture.

It is very evident indeed that you are denying the plain word of God.

You will be called to account for denying the very plain words of Scripture winman.

 

[Rippon]

That's not what Isaiah said;

Isa 58:2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.

This verse says the very opposite of what you just said.

The Lord revealed Himself to the nation of Israel alone in the Old Testament. He let the other nations alone. They went their own way. No one did any seeking of God.

 

[Winman]

The Lord revealed Himself to the nation of Israel alone in the Old Testament. He let the other nations alone. They went their own way. No one did any seeking of God.

There are many instances of men seeking God in the scriptures.

2 Chr 26:3 Sixteen years old was Uzziah when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty and two years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Jecoliah of Jerusalem.
4 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father Amaziah did.
5 And he sought God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding in the visions of God: and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him to prosper.

King Uzziah sought God.

Calvinism takes a single verse in Romans 3:11 and tries to teach Total Inability, when it does not teach that at all. Paul was quoting Psa 14:2 which was speaking of "fools" and not all men. Fools do not seek God, but not all men are fools. The same Psalm speaks of "the righteous" and the poor who trust in God.

You can pull a verse out of context and make it say anything. Doesn't make it truth.

 

[salzer mtn]

Philippians 1:3-6
I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:



What was the good work which God had begun in them, and would carry to completion? The MONEY


Even go read Gill's comments on verse 5, where he starts out supporting the context, that being the MONEY they gave.

Then, after only a couple of sentences in dealing with verse 5, Gill made an unwarranted shift to Perseverance of the Saints


The Greek word is Koinonian - partnership, sharing, fellowship, etc




What's up with that? Why did he spend two minutes on the actual context, then take a doctrinal nose dive off the deep end?


And better yet, why have YOU swallowed his nonsense - hook, line and sinker ??

Why do you not investigate a little before regurgitating the doctrinal slant of somebody who was trying with all his might to press his bias onto scripture?


Romans 15:26 - For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution (Koinonian) for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. [MONEY]

2Corinthians 8:4 - Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; how that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves; praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints. [MONEY]

2Corinthians 9:1-13 - For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you: for I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many. Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready........For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men


Paul commended the Macedonian church numerous times for the financial "partnering", and exhorted the Corinthians to do the same.

So you'll have to excuse me, but I have learned. And Gill twisted the meaning of 1:6 so far out of context that he should have been ashamed of himself - because he did it on purpose. That is evidenced by his beginning comments on verse 5

I wonder who has more weight with the body of Christ, you or John Gill ? As Cassius Clay once said of Leon Spinks, Leon who ? so in closing, James Who ?

 

[Yeshua1]

There are many instances of men seeking God in the scriptures.

2 Chr 26:3 Sixteen years old was Uzziah when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty and two years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Jecoliah of Jerusalem.
4 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father Amaziah did.
5 And he sought God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding in the visions of God: and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him to prosper.

King Uzziah sought God.

Calvinism takes a single verse in Romans 3:11 and tries to teach Total Inability, when it does not teach that at all. Paul was quoting Psa 14:2 which was speaking of "fools" and not all men. Fools do not seek God, but not all men are fools. The same Psalm speaks of "the righteous" and the poor who trust in God.

You can pull a verse out of context and make it say anything. Doesn't make it truth.

We teach that unless/until God moves first to allow us to seek Him out, no one will be able to come unto Him to get saved, as they will need God to reveal Himself to them beforehand!

 

[JamesL]

I wonder who has more weight with the body of Christ, you or John Gill ? As Cassius Clay once said of Leon Spinks, Leon who ? so in closing, James Who ?

So is that an admission that you care more about doctrinal comfort than you do sound biblical teaching?

Sure sounds like it

 

[Winman]

We teach that unless/until God moves first to allow us to seek Him out, no one will be able to come unto Him to get saved, as they will need God to reveal Himself to them beforehand!

I don't know of anyone who believes differently, so why do you CONSTANTLY imply folks believe this?

Do you still beat your wife?

 

[salzer mtn]

So is that an admission that you care more about doctrinal comfort than you do sound biblical teaching?

Sure sounds like it

I read in Matthew Henrys commentary what he said about this same scripture and his was along the same line as John Gill. I think I will line up with these learned men of God rather than with James Who.

 

[convicted1]

The Lord revealed Himself to the nation of Israel alone in the Old Testament. He let the other nations alone. They went their own way. No one did any seeking of God.

Exactly!! :thumbsup:

The rest were left to worship:

Old Testament idols
The following "gods" are specifically named in the Old Testament

1. Dagon 1 Samuel 05:02 etc Philistine/Ekronian/Babylonian god of agriculture
2. Milcom 1 Kings 11:05 Ammonite god
3. Ashtoreth 1 Kings 11:05 etc Canaanite goddess
4. Chemosh 1 Kings 11:07 etc Moabite war god
5. Molech 1 Kings 11:07 Ammonite God, also called Moloch, most probably Baal-Hammon of Carthage
6. Rimmon 2 Kings 05:18 Babylonian/Syrian storm god involved (as Ramman) with the Deluge; also known as Ramman/Rammon
7. Ashima 2 Kings 17:30 Samaritan Moon goddess
8. Nergal 2 Kings 17:30 Cuth/Assyrian/Babylonian war and underworld god, also called Meshlamthea
9. Succoth-Benoth 2 Kings 17:30 Babylonian fertility goddess ("She Who Produces Seed"), also known as Zarpanitu/Zerpanitum
10. Adrammelech & Anammelech 2 Kings 17:31 Sepharvite gods
11. Nibhaz & Tartak 2 Kings 17:31 Avite gods
12. Nisroch 2 Kings 19:37 Assyrian god
13. Baal/Baalim 1 Kings 18:18, 19 etc Canaanite god ("lord") of fertility, vegetation and storms, pl. a collective of the different aspects of Baal. (Baal-berith, Judges 8:33 A regional variation/aspect of Baal)
14. Bel & Nebo Isaiah 46:01 Assyrian/Babylonian/Sumerian/Syrian gods. Bel = “lord”. Nebo was a god of wisdom and writing, also called Nabu
15. Tammuz Ezekial 8:14 Assyrian/Babylonian God


Got that list from.....

http://darbygray.blogspot.com/2008/11/old-testament-idols.html

 

[JamesL]

I read in Matthew Henrys commentary what he said about this same scripture and his was along the same line as John Gill. I think I will line up with these learned men of God rather than with James Who.

Or you could search the scriptures. But I guess that would be asking too much.

Good job. You're in good company

 

[salzer mtn]

Or you could search the scriptures. But I guess that would be asking too much.

Good job. You're in good company

In post 201 I stated my own beliefs of the scripture before I had read either commentary. Both John Gill and Matthew Henry just happened to believe the same thing I do. James you are the first person I have ever heard of that said money was the interpretation of that scripture.

 

[JamesL]

In post 201 I stated my own beliefs of the scripture before I had read either commentary. Both John Gill and Matthew Henry just happened to believe the same thing I do. James you are the first person I have ever heard of that said money was the interpretation of that scripture.

Ok, so now you have a task ahead of you...

Investigate. Search. Study. Don't take my word or Gill's word on blind faith. Treat everybody with the same suspicion, even if they agree with everything you've ever believed.

Start with Gill's comments on verse 5. Why did he start out saying exactly what I said, then he made an abrupt change?

Believe me, I know it's uncomfortable. I've been there.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't know of anyone who believes differently, so why do you CONSTANTLY imply folks believe this?

Do you still beat your wife?

You still beieve sinners by their own accord will seek after the Lord though, correct?

 

[webdog]

The Lord revealed Himself to the nation of Israel alone in the Old Testament. He let the other nations alone. They went their own way. No one did any seeking of God.

I recall a story about Jonah that would refute this notion.