Free will(not to derail another post)

[convicted1]

I noticed a thread about FWB's and I had some things come to my mind, so to keep from derailing that thread, I wanted to start a new one.

First off, no, I am not a FWB, but have been raised around them my whole life. I love them dearly, and any of them that are saved by grace through faith, they are my Brother, or Sister, in Christ. I do not believe that someone can make their faith "shipwreck", and therefore be re-lost(if that's even a word, LOL). I believe that once God saves someone, they are saved for eternity!

Now, here is where the rubber meets the road. Man does have a freewill in regards to choosing Christ or not. No, man will not call out to God before God draws him, so "election"(God's call to mankind) comes for Him, and not man. Once the call goes to that individual, it's up to him to either call out to God, or to say "no". Here are some examples:

Rev. Ch. 3:[20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
[/COLOR] Notice that Jesus said "I stand at the door and knock". He didn't say he'd beat it down. The second part is if any man will hear my voice, and OPEN THE DOOR, He would come in. Looks like if the door doesn't get opened from someone besides Jesus, He won't come in.

Let's now take a look at Luke Ch. 15 and the Prodical son. When he was in the "hog lot", the scriptures states "he came to himself", and that he thought of his father's servents, and that they had "bread to spare", and he perished with hunger. He then said [COLOR="red"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, [/B][/COLOR]
[B][COLOR=red]And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. ][/COLOR][/B] So, if he hadn't decided to "go back to his father", he'd still be in the "hog lot".

Man does have a responsibility in his salvation, too. Here are a few examples:
Isa. Ch. 55:7[B][COLOR=red][Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and [U]let him[/U] return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. [/COLOR][/COLOR][/B]

[COLOR="red"]Joshua Ch. 24:15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

[Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
/COLOR]

Now here is one in the NT!!
Luke 10:42But one thing is needful: and ]Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
It states here that "Mary hath chosen"!

So in summation, I don't think man can save himself. I also don't think man can lose his salvation, either. However, man does have a responsibility in his salvation(meaning they have to call out from the heart, and believe in/on Him)...for without us calling out(after God draws), we won't be saved. With love!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[HAMel]

Thanks for your response.

The prodigal son did in fact come to himself and returned home. The FWB maintain that had he "died" in that hog lot he would have surely been damned to an eternity in hell.

From time to time I suppose we all wander and stray but if we're saved we will certainly come to our senses eventually. If not, then we were never saved to begin with and otherwise would not be interested in returning anywhere.

 

[Tom Butler]

The verse "I stand at the door and knock" is said by Jesus to a group of believers, not lost people. The congregation at Laodicea (Rev 3:20)

 

[Winman]

The verse "I stand at the door and knock" is said by Jesus to a group of believers, not lost people. The congregation at Laodicea (Rev 3:20)

False. It is spoken to everyone, all you have to do is read the next two verses to see that.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Yes, Jesus is speaking to the churches, but he is also speaking to everyone else. If you have ears on the side of your head, then Jesus was speaking to you also. And this is just a figure of speech, it is also intended for those without ears. If a person were born without ears but could read the scriptures it is intended for them also.

When you receive Christ you are born again. You cannot become unborn once you are born, and being born of God you cannot die.

 

[glfredrick]

One of the errors is in associating election with salvation. Election is but one of the parts involved in salvation. There is also the effectual call, justification, regeneration, faith/repentance, adoption, sealing, sanctification, perseverance, and ultimately, glorification.

Of all these "parts" God is the sole instigator of most, and we participate with God's grace in a couple like faith/repentance, answering the effectual call (though the fact that we CAN answer is already due to the Holy Spirit drawing our hearts to God), sanctification (by God's grace, we grow into the image and likeness of Christ), and perseverance (by God's grace we, in faith, will trust God until we meet face to face).

It is in lumping the entire salvific order into one big pool that we are able to make theological errors concerning human free will and God's sovereignty.

Additionally, two further issues should be mentioned. First, who or what is it that ultimately trumps God? Bow down and worship that for you have found what it is that God Himself must bow (but I would humbly suggest that nothing "trumps" God in any sake or sense. Additionally, was it not "human free will" that the Serpent offered Eve (and Adam) while standing at the foot of the Tree in the Garden? Second, will God allow anyone into His ultimate and eternal kingdom who has the potential for exercising their free will to repeat the sin of Adam? (I doubt that He will...)

Note that I don't think that this issue needs to be a "test" that causes division among brothers and sisters in Christ. We will ALL likely discover some error in our understanding of the issues surrounding God's sovereignty and human free will. Worst case, presuming that we are "in Christ" and actually able to stand in God's presence as saved believers, is that we will discover where we were wrong and never be wrong again! With this "worst case" scenario is the fact that we'll be standing arm-in-arm with our brothers and sisters in this time of discovery! If we do not think so, the chances are really good that we'll never get to make the discovery at all...

 

[menageriekeeper]

I spent my teen years with the FWB and what I was taught isn't exactly what I am hearing here.

Lets talk about freewill to choose. Winman and Convicted1 have correctly summed up what the FWBs taught when I was a teen (ohh, 25, no 30 years ago! do I want to admit that? ).

However, though I heard the words "shipwreck of faith" that isn't exactly what I was taught. This scripture hold the key:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If they chose to "fall away" then salvation cannot be found for them a second time. This does not mean, they are working to keep their salvation, but that if one chooses to walk away, then they are done. No more chances.

Now this is not what I believe, simply because of the "shipwreck" passage:

1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

The bolded part is what is important. It references back to this passage:

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

And even as a teen, I understood this to mean that one does not lose one's salvation, even if it appears you have walked away from it. (the FWB church I attended allowed me to disagree with them)

Now, for those of you who can't seem to understand the socalled descrepancy of believing one must chose for themselves salvation, yet not believing that one can chose to not believe once salvation is imparted, let me explain.

Once salvation is complete, that is, faith has been placed in Christ's sacrifice and grace applied, we are a "new creature". We are also no longer our own. We belong to Christ. We have given up the reins of control and yes, freewill to Him. He then, maintains the relationship. Not us, so that we can't boast. We might think, we are walking away from Him, but not so; He will leave the 99 to go look for the 1. This is why the Bible speaks of God chastizing those He loves. And this is the message of the last scripture I posted. We might lose our lives, but our souls no longer rely on our freewill, but on God's grace and mercy.

 

[Winman]

That passage in Hebrews 6 proves Calvinism error. Because it must teach one of two possibilites.

1) If this passage is speaking of a saved person, then it is teaching that a saved person can fall from grace and be lost. This contradicts Perserverence of the Saints (P).

2) If this passage is speaking of an unsaved person, then it teaches that an unsaved person can be enlightened and be a partaker of the Holy Spirit and yet fall away in unbelief. This contradicts the Calvinist view of Total Depravity (T) and Irresistable Grace (I).

Once salvation is complete, that is, faith has been placed in Christ's sacrifice and grace applied, we are a "new creature". We are also no longer our own. We belong to Christ. We have given up the reins of control and yes, freewill to Him. He then, maintains the relationship. Not us, so that we can't boast. We might think, we are walking away from Him, but not so; He will leave the 99 to go look for the 1. This is why the Bible speaks of God chastizing those He loves. And this is the message of the last scripture I posted. We might lose our lives, but our souls no longer rely on our freewill, but on God's grace and mercy.

This is correct, we are kept by Jesus himself, this is Preservation of the Saints. We are not saved because we are faithful to Jesus, we are saved because he is faithful to us. You are exactly correct, if we like a sheep wander away and get lost, he comes looking for us. And Jesus never fails.

 

[freeatlast]

I noticed a thread about FWB's and I had some things come to my mind, so to keep from derailing that thread, I wanted to start a new one.

First off, no, I am not a FWB, but have been raised around them my whole life. I love them dearly, and any of them that are saved by grace through faith, they are my Brother, or Sister, in Christ. I do not believe that someone can make their faith "shipwreck", and therefore be re-lost(if that's even a word, LOL). I believe that once God saves someone, they are saved for eternity!

Now, here is where the rubber meets the road. Man does have a freewill in regards to choosing Christ or not. No, man will not call out to God before God draws him, so "election"(God's call to mankind) comes for Him, and not man. Once the call goes to that individual, it's up to him to either call out to God, or to say "no". Here are some examples:

Rev. Ch. 3:[20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
/COLOR] Notice that Jesus said "I stand at the door and knock". He didn't say he'd beat it down. The second part is if any man will hear my voice, and OPEN THE DOOR, He would come in. Looks like if the door doesn't get opened from someone besides Jesus, He won't come in.

Let's now take a look at Luke Ch. 15 and the Prodical son. When he was in the "hog lot", the scriptures states "he came to himself", and that he thought of his father's servents, and that they had "bread to spare", and he perished with hunger. He then said [COLOR="red"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, [/B][/COLOR]
[B][COLOR=red]And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. ][/COLOR][/B] So, if he hadn't decided to "go back to his father", he'd still be in the "hog lot".

Man does have a responsibility in his salvation, too. Here are a few examples:
Isa. Ch. 55:7[B][COLOR=red][Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and [U]let him[/U] return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. /COLOR][/COLOR][/B]

[COLOR="red"]Joshua Ch. 24:15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

[Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
/COLOR]

Now here is one in the NT!!
Luke 10:42But one thing is needful: and ]Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
It states here that "Mary hath chosen"!

So in summation, I don't think man can save himself. I also don't think man can lose his salvation, either. However, man does have a responsibility in his salvation(meaning they have to call out from the heart, and believe in/on Him)...for without us calling out(after God draws), we won't be saved. With love!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

convicted1, are you simply making a statement of what you believe or are you asking a question?

 

[Dr. Bob]

False. It is spoken to everyone, all you have to do is read the next two verses to see that. .

Cannot allow such grievous error to go unchallenged. There are seven letters in Rev 2-3 to seven churches with which John was intimately acquainted.

Each of these letters ends with the exact same phrase "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." Set message for each church, followed by the concluding line. Then opening line of next. Crystal clear. Cannot imagine anyone missing it???

So the final part of the message to the Church at Laodicea was written to the Church at Laodicea [duh], just like the final part of the first letter was to the Church at Ephesus

To rip that from context to make it into some "evangelistic" text for unsaved to be born again is horribly contrary to what the message to the Church says.

But we've all heard preeeechers rip apart the Word for a good sermon.

 

[convicted1]

Thanks for your response.

The prodigal son did in fact come to himself and returned home. The FWB maintain that had he "died" in that hog lot he would have surely been damned to an eternity in hell.

From time to time I suppose we all wander and stray but if we're saved we will certainly come to our senses eventually. If not, then we were never saved to begin with and otherwise would not be interested in returning anywhere.

First off, thank you for you response to this thread! The reason why I started this one, was I had some things come to my mind when I read the thread you started. So, to keep from "plowing in someone else's garden", and potentially tearing down their corn, I started this.

I think we may have two different ideas about the prodigal son. I believe this is really talking about when we first step out into sin. When we were young, we were in Father's house, and when "The commandment came, sin revived, and I died," we then left Father's house and spoiled our inheritance(sp?) with riotous living. When the prodigal son "came to himself", is when God called out to him in his sins(hog lot), and he thinks of His Father's servants(CHRISTians) and that they have bread to spare. Him coming back to the Father is when one is repenting of their sins, knowing that they have nothing to offer Him, but they'd be willing to come back as a hired servant, and not His son(humbleness of the soul){God gives grace to the humble}. When the Father had compassion(oh how I love that word!!!) on him, He ran out and met him, and fell upon his neck and kissed him. He then put a ring(love in his hand, put the best robe and shoes on him, and then told His servants to "kill the fatted calf"(there is more rejoicing in heaven over one man repenting, than 99 that need not to repent). This is how I hold to the story of the prodigal son. I hope this helps!! With love!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

convicted1, are you simply making a statement of what you believe or are you asking a question?

I was making a statement that I "pinged" from another thread. So, to keep from completely derailing that one, I started this one. FTR, all of y'all can call me "Willis" if you like. Convicted1 is my "username" , but feel free to call me by my real name. Please feel free to respond as many times as you like. With love!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

The verse "I stand at the door and knock" is said by Jesus to a group of believers, not lost people. The congregation at Laodicea (Rev 3:20)

I agree that this passage is written "to" the church, but I think this was also written "for" the lost. Here is a scripture in John.

John 14: 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abodewith him. Now before you refute this scripture, if the Trinity is in the believer, they are already in the church. If He is talking to the church members who are not in Him, then they are not in His church. So I think Rev. 3:20 can be for the saint and sinner.

Now, if this is written solely to the church, why would He have to "stand at the door and knock?" if He is already in there? The Word is written "to" the church, but is also written "for" the lost....a light for the feet lost in the wilderness, so to speak! With love!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[TomVols]

The verse "I stand at the door and knock" is said by Jesus to a group of believers, not lost people. The congregation at Laodicea (Rev 3:20)

Tom, sound exegesis is not allowed per BaptistBoard rules. You should expect an infraction point soon :laugh:

But we've all heard preeeechers rip apart the Word for a good sermon.

A lot of preachers refuse to let faithful interpretation get in the way of an easy sermon they won't have to work hard or pray hard over.

 

[RAdam]

Who was Jesus speaking to in Revelation 3:20? Who was He talking to? It doesn't matter who you think it was written for, who was He talking to? Was it unregenerate men, or born again church members? If it was the latter, then Jesus was speaking to people who are already heaven bound. If so, then it is not an offer of salvation, it is not Jesus pleading with the lost to be saved, but rather it is an admonition for born again children of God to repent (hmm, that context thing again).

Look, if you rip a verse from its context and change the audience to suit your needs, you are misusing the text and being dishonest to those you present it to.

 

[HAMel]

Regarding Rev: 3:20, Albert Barnes proves the following.

Verse 20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock. Intimating that, though they had erred, the way of repentance and hope was not closed against them. He was still willing to be gracious, though their conduct had been such as to be loathsome, Re 3:16. To see the real force of this language, we must remember how disgusting and offensive their conduct had been to him. And yet he was willing, notwithstanding this, to receive them to his favour; nay more, he stood and pleaded with them that he might be received with the hospitality that would be shown to a friend or stranger. The language here is so plain that it scarcely needs explanation. It is taken from an act when we approach a dwelling, and, by a well-understood sign--knocking--announce our presence, and ask for admission. The act of knocking implies two things:

(a) that we desire admittance; and

(b) that we recognise the right of him who dwells in the house to open the door to us or not, as he shall please. We would not obtrude upon him; we would not force his door; and if, after we are sure that we are heard, we are not admitted, we turn quietly away. Both of these things are implied here by the language used by the Saviour when he approaches man as represented under the image of knocking at the door: that he desires to be admitted to our friendship; and that he recognises our freedom in the matter. He does not obtrude himself upon us, nor does he employ force to find admission to the heart. If admitted, he comes and dwells with us; if rejected, he turns quietly away--perhaps to return and knock again, perhaps never to come back. The language here used, also, may be understood as applicable to all persons, and to all the methods by which the Saviour seeks to come into the heart of a sinner. It would properly refer to anything which would announce his presence:--his word; his Spirit; the solemn events of his Providence; the invitations of his gospel. In these and in other methods he comes to man; and the manner in which these invitations ought to be estimated would be seen by supposing that he came to us personally and solicited our friendship, and proposed to be our Redeemer. It may be added here, that this expression proves that the attempt at reconciliation begins with the Saviour. It is not that the sinner goes out to meet him, or to seek for him; it is that the Saviour presents himself at the door of the heart as if he were desirous to enjoy the friendship of man. This is in accordance with the uniform language of the New Testament, that "God so loved the world as to give his only-begotten Son;" that "Christ came to seek and to save the lost;" that the Saviour says, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden," etc. Salvation, in the Scriptures, is never represented as originated by man.

If any man hear my voice. Perhaps referring to a custom then prevailing, that he who knocked spake, in order to let it be known who it was. This might be demanded in the night, (Lu 11:5) or when there was apprehension of danger, and it may have been the custom when John wrote. The language here, in accordance with the uniform usage in the Scriptures, (compare Isa 55:1; Joh 7:37; Re 22:17) is universal, and proves that the invitations of the gospel are made, and are to be made, not to a part only, but fully and freely to all men; for, although this originally had reference to the members of the church in Laodicea, yet the language chosen seems to have been of design so universal (ean tiv) as to be applicable to every human being; and any one, of any age and in any land, would be authorized to apply this to himself, and, under the protection of this invitation to come to the Saviour, and to plead this promise as one that fairly included himself. It may be observed farther, that this also recognises the freedom of man. It is submitted to him whether he will hear the voice of the Redeemer or not; and whether he will open the door and admit him or not. He speaks loud enough, and distinctly enough, to be heard, but he does not force the door if it is not voluntarily opened.

And open the door. As one would when a stranger or friend stood and knocked. The meaning here is simply, if any one will admit me; that is, receive me as a friend. The act of receiving him is as voluntary on our part as it is when we rise and open the door to one who knocks. It may be added,

(1.) that this is an easy thing. Nothing is more easy than to open the door when one knocks; and so everywhere in the Scriptures it is represented as an easy thing, if the heart is willing, to secure the salvation of the soul.

(2.) This is a reasonable thing. We invite him who knocks at the door to come in. We always assume, unless there is reason to suspect the contrary, that he applies for peaceful and friendly purposes. We deem it the height of rudeness to let one stand and knock long; or to let him go away with no friendly invitation to enter our dwelling. Yet how differently does the sinner treat the Saviour! How long does he suffer him to knock at the door of his heart, with no invitation to enter--no act of common civility such as that with which he would greet even a stranger! And with how much coolness and indifference does he see him turn away--perhaps to come back no more, and with no desire that he ever should return!

I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. This is an image denoting intimacy and friendship. Supper, with the ancients, was the principal social meal; and the idea here is, that between the Saviour and those who would receive him, there would be the intimacy which subsists between those who sit down to a friendly meal together. In all countries and times, to eat together, to break bread together, has been the symbol of friendship, and this the Saviour promises here. The truths, then, which are taught in this verse, are

(1) that the invitation of the gospel is made to all--"if any man hear my voice;"

(2) that the movement towards reconciliation and friendship is originated by the Saviour--"behold, I stand at the door and knock;"

(3) that there is a recognition of our own free agency in religion--"if any man will hear my voice, and open the door;"

(4) the ease of the terms of salvation, represented by "hearing his voice," and "opening the door;" and

(5) the blessedness of thus admitting him, arising from his friendship--"I will sup with him, and he with me." What friend can man have who would confer so many benefits on him as the Lord Jesus Christ? Who is there that he should so gladly welcome to his bosom?

{d} "knock" Song 5:2; Lu 12:36

 

[RAdam]

What Albert Barnes just did was rip a verse from its context and change the meaning to suit his theology.

 

[webdog]

Cannot allow such grievous error to go unchallenged. There are seven letters in Rev 2-3 to seven churches with which John was intimately acquainted.

Each of these letters ends with the exact same phrase "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." Set message for each church, followed by the concluding line. Then opening line of next. Crystal clear. Cannot imagine anyone missing it???

So the final part of the message to the Church at Laodicea was written to the Church at Laodicea [duh], just like the final part of the first letter was to the Church at Ephesus

To rip that from context to make it into some "evangelistic" text for unsaved to be born again is horribly contrary to what the message to the Church says.

But we've all heard preeeechers rip apart the Word for a good sermon.

MacArthur like myself and many others believe the church at Laodicea was an apostate church, a "church" in name only based on Jesus' "buy from Me..." offer.

How many true churches have Jesus on the outside knocking to come in?

 

[webdog]

Who was Jesus speaking to in Revelation 3:20? Who was He talking to? It doesn't matter who you think it was written for, who was He talking to? Was it unregenerate men, or born again church members? If it was the latter, then Jesus was speaking to people who are already heaven bound. If so, then it is not an offer of salvation, it is not Jesus pleading with the lost to be saved, but rather it is an admonition for born again children of God to repent (hmm, that context thing again).

Look, if you rip a verse from its context and change the audience to suit your needs, you are misusing the text and being dishonest to those you present it to.

How many true believers and true churches have Christ on the outside knocking to come in?

 

[RAdam]

Christ called them a church. That's good enough for me considering that He is the Head of the church. I believe He knew what He was talking about.

 

[freeatlast]

MacArthur like myself and many others believe the church at Laodicea was an apostate church, a "church" in name only based on Jesus' "buy from Me..." offer.

How many true churches have Jesus on the outside knocking to come in?

I would have to agree. Many churches are nothing but churches in name only just like many people are Christians in name only.