Free will(not to derail another post)

[webdog]

Christ called them a church. That's good enough for me considering that He is the Head of the church. I believe He knew what He was talking about.

...and you don't find it odd that the head of the Church is standing on the outside? He called them churches, and like today not all churches are the same nor made up or founded on true believers. It very well could have been a real church at one point and became an apostate "church".

 

[RAdam]

But you are talking about people calling themselves a church. People can call themselves anything, that doesn't make it so. This isn't the case in scripture. In scripture a church is a called out group of believers in Jesus Christ. I can't think of a single time when scripture calls a group of unbelievers or false Christians a church. Corinth had problems, major problems, but they were still God's saved people and were called a church.

This is the Head calling this a church. This isn't Laodicea calling themselves a church, or you or I calling them one. This is the Lord in His bible calling them a church. That makes them a church. A troubled church needing repentence, but a church nonetheless. There is no basis for taking them to be false Christians except a desire to cast this scripture in a certain light. If we allow scripture to speak for itself and compare scripture with scripture we must come to this conclusion: Jesus is admonishing a church to repent.

 

[webdog]

But you are talking about people calling themselves a church. People can call themselves anything, that doesn't make it so. This isn't the case in scripture. In scripture a church is a called out group of believers in Jesus Christ. I can't think of a single time when scripture calls a group of unbelievers or false Christians a church. Corinth had problems, major problems, but they were still God's saved people and were called a church.

This is the Head calling this a church. This isn't Laodicea calling themselves a church, or you or I calling them one. This is the Lord in His bible calling them a church. That makes them a church. A troubled church needing repentence, but a church nonetheless. There is no basis for taking them to be false Christians except a desire to cast this scripture in a certain light. If we allow scripture to speak for itself and compare scripture with scripture we must come to this conclusion: Jesus is admonishing a church to repent.

Back to the question, how does a true church have Christ on the outside of it? Why does He use the terminology of "buy from me" used elsewhere as an offer of salvation?

 

[Tom Butler]

In 3:19, Jesus says that the ones he loves, he rebukes and chastens.

Now, who are those whom he chastens?

One answer from Deuteronomy 8:5: You should know in your heart that as a man chastens his son, so the LORD your God chastens you.

Then Proverbs 3:11-12: My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, nor detest his corrections; for whom the LORD loves he corrects, just as a father the son in whom he delights.

Hebrews 12:6-8 For whom the LORD loveth, he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as a son; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth NOT? But ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Sounds as if Jesus was chewing out his children.

 

[webdog]

"For God so loved the world..."

The difference is in the chastening of a son as compared to he who is not His son.

 

[convicted1]

Who was Jesus speaking to in Revelation 3:20? Who was He talking to? It doesn't matter who you think it was written for, who was He talking to? Was it unregenerate men, or born again church members? If it was the latter, then Jesus was speaking to people who are already heaven bound. If so, then it is not an offer of salvation, it is not Jesus pleading with the lost to be saved, but rather it is an admonition for born again children of God to repent (hmm, that context thing again).

Look, if you rip a verse from its context and change the audience to suit your needs, you are misusing the text and being dishonest to those you present it to.

Dear Brother,

I am not trying to rip a verse from its context, but bringing to light the part where it says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock". If He is at the "door" knocking, evidently He isn't on the "inside", or else, why knock?

Let's try this again.
John 14: 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Now here is what the word "abode" means in Greek:
μονή mone mon-ay G3306 in Strong's "feminine noun"

1) a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode

2) to make an (one's) abode

3) metaph. of the God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers

So when Jesus stated "we will come unto him and make up our "abode", we get plural words "we" and "our", and that "abode" means to literally "stay" with him/her. So if He is in the heart of the believer(the Church), then He has no need to stand at the "door and knock". So I think this verse goes both ways. When I was a sinner seeking God's mercy, He would show me things from time-to-time(lighting the path from the wilderness to "home") as I tried to read the bible. After He saved my dead soul, He has given me things in greater detail now. But a "seeker" will get somethings from God, if he is sincerely "pleading" his case before the "Throne of Grace"!! Praise His sweet name! With love!!

i am I am's!!

Willis




In verse 23 Jesus states that We(the Trinity) will take up our abode with him.

 

[Tom Butler]

Jesus did not call the church at Laodicea apostate. He called them lukewarm. That's a long way from apostate.

 

[webdog]

Jesus did not call the church at Laodicea apostate. He called them lukewarm. That's a long way from apostate.

Actually it's not. What we know as lukewarm was considered putrid. You don't puke out lukewarm water, and it makes no sense that God would rather have someone be an unbeliever than a "lukewarm" believer. John MacArthur did a good job in his commentary on that particular passage, particularly taking into account the context of the location of Laodicea and it's hot springs.

 

[Winman]

Cannot allow such grievous error to go unchallenged. There are seven letters in Rev 2-3 to seven churches with which John was intimately acquainted.

Each of these letters ends with the exact same phrase "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." Set message for each church, followed by the concluding line. Then opening line of next. Crystal clear. Cannot imagine anyone missing it???

So the final part of the message to the Church at Laodicea was written to the Church at Laodicea [duh], just like the final part of the first letter was to the Church at Ephesus

To rip that from context to make it into some "evangelistic" text for unsaved to be born again is horribly contrary to what the message to the Church says.

But we've all heard preeeechers rip apart the Word for a good sermon.

Grievous error? If so, I am in good company. Here is what Matthew Henry wrote of this verse.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock, etc., v. 20. Here observe, [1.] Christ is graciously pleased by his word and Spirit to come to the door of the heart of sinners; he draws near to them in a way of mercy, ready to make them a kind visit. [2.] He finds this door shut against him; the heart of man is by nature shut up against Christ by ignorance, unbelief, sinful prejudices. [3.] When he finds the heart shut, he does not immediately withdraw, but he waits to be gracious, even till his head be filled with the dew. [4.] He uses all proper means to awaken sinners, and to cause them to open to him: he calls by his word, he knocks by the impulses of his Spirit upon their conscience. [5.] Those who open to him shall enjoy his presence, to their great comfort and advantage. He will sup with them; he will accept of what is good in them; he will eat his pleasant fruit; and he will bring the best part of the entertainment with him. If what he finds would make but a poor feast, what he brings will make up the deficiency: he will give fresh supplies of graces and comforts, and thereby stir up fresh actings of faith, and love, and delight; and in all this Christ and his repenting people will enjoy pleasant communion with each other. Alas! what do careless obstinate sinners lose by refusing to open the door of the heart to Christ!

Here is what Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown wrote on this verse.

20. stand--waiting in wonderful condescension and long-suffering.
knock-- ( Sgs 5:2 ). This is a further manifestation of His loving desire for the sinner's salvation. He who is Himself "the Door," and who bids us "knock" that it may be "opened unto" us, is first Himself to knock at the door of our hearts. If He did not knock first, we should never come to knock at His door. Compare Sgs 5:4-6 , which is plainly alluded to here; the Spirit thus in Revelation sealing the canonicity of that mystical book. The spiritual state of the bride there, between waking and sleeping, slow to open the door to her divine lover, answers to that of the lukewarm Laodicea here. "Love in regard to men emptied (humbled) God; for He does not remain in His place and call to Himself the servant whom He loved, but He comes down Himself to seek him, and He who is all-rich arrives at the lodging of the pauper, and with His own voice intimates His yearning love, and seeks a similar return, and withdraws not when disowned, and is not impatient at insult, and when persecuted still waits at the doors" [NICOLAUS CABASILAS in TRENCH].
my voice--He appeals to the sinner not only with His hand (His providences) knocking, but with His voice (His word read or heard; or rather, His Spirit inwardly applying to man's spirit the lessons to be drawn from His providence and His word). If we refuse to answer to His knocking at our door now, He will refuse to hear our knocking at His door hereafter. In respect to His second coming also, He is even now at the door, and we know not how soon He may knock: therefore we should always be ready to open to Him immediately.
if any man hear--for man is not compelled by irresistible force: Christ knocks, but does not break open the door, though the violent take heaven by the force of prayer ( Mat 11:12 ): whosoever does hear, does so not of himself, but by the drawings of God's grace ( Jhn 6:44 ): repentance is Christ's gift ( Act 5:31 ). He draws, not drags. The Sun of righteousness, like the natural sun, the moment that the door is opened, pours in His light, which could not previously find an entrance. Compare HILARY on Psalm 118:19.
I will come in to him--as I did to Zaccheus.
sup with him, and he with me--Delightful reciprocity! Compare "dwelleth in me, and I in Him," Jhn 6:56 . Whereas, ordinarily, the admitted guest sups with the admitter, here the divine guest becomes Himself the host, for He is the bread of life, and the Giver of the marriage feast. Here again He alludes to the imagery of Sgs 4:16 , where the Bride invites Him to eat pleasant fruits, even as He had first prepared a feast for her, "His fruit was sweet to my taste." Compare the same interchange, Jhn 21:9-13 , the feast being made up of the viands that Jesus brought, and those which the disciples brought. The consummation of this blessed intercommunion shall be at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, of which the Lord's Supper is the earnest and foretaste.

Barnes Notes

We would not obtrude upon him; we would not force his door; and if, after we are sure that we are heard, we are not admitted, we turn quietly away. Both of these things are implied here by the language used by the Saviour when he approaches man as represented under the image of knocking at the door: that he desires to be admitted to our friendship; and that he recognizes our freedom in the matter. He does not obtrude himself upon us, nor does he employ force to find admission to the heart. If admitted, he comes and dwells with us; if rejected, he turns quietly away - perhaps to return and knock again, perhaps never to come back. The language used here, also, may be understood as applicable to all persons, and to all the methods by which the Saviour seeks to come into the heart of a sinner. It would properly refer to anything which would announce his presence: his word; his Spirit; the solemn events of his providence; the invitations of his gospel. In these and in other methods he comes to man; and the manner in which these invitations ought to be estimated would be seen by supposing that he came to us personally and solicited our friendship, and proposed to be our Redeemer. It may be added here, that this expression proves that the attempt at reconciliation begins with the Saviour. It is not that the sinner goes out to meet him, or to seek for him; it is that the Saviour presents himself at the door of the heart, as if he were desirous to enjoy the friendship of man. This is in accordance with the uniform language of the New Testament, that "God so loved the world as to give his only-begotten Son" ; that "Christ came to seek and to save the lost" ; that the Saviour says, "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden," etc. Salvation, in the Scriptures, is never represented as originated by man.

If any man hear my voice - Perhaps referring to a custom then prevailing, that he who knocked spake, in order to let it be known who it was. This might be demanded in the night Luke 11:5, or when there was apprehension of danger, and it may have been the custom when John wrote. The language here, in accordance with the uniform usage in the Scriptures (compare Isaiah 55:1; John 7:37; Revelation 22:17), is universal, and proves that the invitations of the gospel are made, and are to be made, not to a part only, but fully and freely to all people; for, although this originally had reference to the members of the church in Laodicea, yet the language chosen seems to have been of design so universal ( ̓́ ean tis ) as to be applicable to every human being; and anyone, of any age and in any land, would be authorized to apply this to himself, and, under the protection of this invitation, to come to the Saviour, and to plead this promise as one that fairly included himself. It may be observed further, that this also recognizes the freedom of man. It is submitted to him whether he will hear the voice of the Redeemer or not; and whether he will open the door and admit him or not. He speaks loud enough, and distinctly enough, to be heard, but he does not force the door if it is not voluntarily opened.

And open the door - As one would when a stranger or friend stood and knocked. The meaning here is simply, if anyone will admit me; that is, receive me as a friend. The act of receiving him is as voluntary on our part as it is when we rise and open the door to one who knocks. It may be added:

So, these godly scholars all agree with my interpretation. But you know what?, even if they didn't I would still believe what Jesus said, he said that if "any man" hears his voice and opens the door he will come in. So I know Jesus is speaking to all men when he said this.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I agree Winman.

What is it about the word 'any' that folk can't understand?

 

[Dr. Bob]

Ripping the simple message, obvious and clear, from its context and teaching some other application is not just the work of IFBX'ers.

There is only one correct interpretation of a passage. This was written to a local church that John knew well. All one paragraph to this church - no "this part is for church, this part is for non-church".. ALL for the church.

That is can be APPLIED to other unrelated areas, as did the commentators, is within their province. Not good but I've heard messages by preachers who make "shaky" application from a lot of passages where that is not the meaning.

 

[Rippon]

Here is what Matthew Henry wrote of this verse.

Matthew Henry wrote no commentary for the book of Revelation.He didn't write anything beyond the book of Acts. Dr.John Evans and others contributed to the volume which is called "Matthew Henry's Comentary On The Bible."

 

[RAdam]

I agree Winman.

What is it about the word 'any' that folk can't understand?

Ok, let me present you with a situation.

A man stands before a crowd of citizens gathered before the Lincoln Memorial in Washington D.C.. He says, "if any man hears my voice, comes forward, and shakes my hand, I will give him a five dollar bill." Now, to whom was this offer, this invitation if you will, presented? Was it presented to people who were presently in Hong Kong, or Moscow, or London, or in the outskirts of Washington D.C.? Who did the man mean by the phrase any man?

Now, if I come along and argue that this offer applies to everyone living in the world presently, you would likely state that I am error. Obviously the man did not intend "any man" to be universally applied. He was speaking to a particular audience and applied the phrase to them. If any of them performed the necessary conditions, they would receive the promised benefits.

The same thing is the case in Revelation 3:20. Jesus is knocking on the door of a church, whom He calls a church, and tell them that is any man does this he will receive that. Obviously, He is speaking to people in the church, part of the church, and is telling them that if any among them will open the door, He will come in and sup with that man. He is not offering salvation to every single member of the human race, He is dealing with people in this church. To rip it from that context destroys the passage, deals unjustly with the text, and perverts the meaning to be gained from the scripture. To assert that a phrase such as any man must refer to every single member of the human race is absurd.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Well the problem with your analogy is that you have a voice that only reaches so far. Christ on the other hand, has a voice that reaches everywhere: "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me".

In light of His previous remarks on the subject of bringing men to salvation, it isn't a stretch to presume that "any" in this passage is relevant to the "all" of previous passages where He was speaking to believers and unbelievers alike.

Let point out another problem with your analogy. If you were standing on a street corner saying "any man", I'd walk around the crowd cause you evidently don't mean me. I'm a woman. So, all these places where Christ says man or men, am I supposed to believe they also don't apply to me? Or am I to rightly determine that the original language didn't properly distinguish between "male" and humanity as a genderless whole?

 

[webdog]

Ok, let me present you with a situation.

A man stands before a crowd of citizens gathered before the Lincoln Memorial in Washington D.C.. He says, "if any man hears my voice, comes forward, and shakes my hand, I will give him a five dollar bill." Now, to whom was this offer, this invitation if you will, presented? Was it presented to people who were presently in Hong Kong, or Moscow, or London, or in the outskirts of Washington D.C.? Who did the man mean by the phrase any man?

Now, if I come along and argue that this offer applies to everyone living in the world presently, you would likely state that I am error. Obviously the man did not intend "any man" to be universally applied. He was speaking to a particular audience and applied the phrase to them. If any of them performed the necessary conditions, they would receive the promised benefits.

The same thing is the case in Revelation 3:20. Jesus is knocking on the door of a church, whom He calls a church, and tell them that is any man does this he will receive that. Obviously, He is speaking to people in the church, part of the church, and is telling them that if any among them will open the door, He will come in and sup with that man. He is not offering salvation to every single member of the human race, He is dealing with people in this church. To rip it from that context destroys the passage, deals unjustly with the text, and perverts the meaning to be gained from the scripture. To assert that a phrase such as any man must refer to every single member of the human race is absurd.

I'll ask again...what true church or believer has Christ on the outside knocking to get in?

 

[RAdam]

I'll ask again...what true church or believer has Christ on the outside knocking to get in?

The one which Jesus refers to as a church.

Your problem is you are placing your opinion onto scripture. You are concluding based on your opinions that this must be an apostate church. Scripture gives you no license for that. Scripture calls this a church. The Son of God didn't say this was an apostate church. He said it is a church. A church with issues, a church that has grown lukewarm, a church in need of repentence, but a church nonetheless. Corinth was a church with many things needing correction, but was still referred to as a church. If the bible calls something a church, it is a church, period. It isn't up for debate. We can't conclude otherwise. My opinion and your opinion do not matter. Scripture says it is a church that has become lukewarm.

 

[RAdam]

Well the problem with your analogy is that you have a voice that only reaches so far. Christ on the other hand, has a voice that reaches everywhere: "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me".

In light of His previous remarks on the subject of bringing men to salvation, it isn't a stretch to presume that "any" in this passage is relevant to the "all" of previous passages where He was speaking to believers and unbelievers alike.

Let point out another problem with your analogy. If you were standing on a street corner saying "any man", I'd walk around the crowd cause you evidently don't mean me. I'm a woman. So, all these places where Christ says man or men, am I supposed to believe they also don't apply to me? Or am I to rightly determine that the original language didn't properly distinguish between "male" and humanity as a genderless whole?

This isn't about whether or not the bible says Christ offers salvation to every man. This is about whether Revelation 3:20 says that.

This isn't about the power of the voice of Christ, or gender issues, or any of that which you inserted into your post intending to distract fromt he issue at hand.

This is about what Revelation 3:20 says. It says Christ told someone He was knocking on a door. To whom was He talking? The church of Laodicea. That cannot be gotten around. He wasn't talking to unsaved sinners around the world, He was talking to a church. What door was He knocking on? The door of the church at Laodicea. He told them if any man, that being any person of that church, would open the door He would come in. He is talking to a church that was once warm and sound, but had now become lukewarm and needed to repent. Their peril is shown by the fact that He is outside knocking on the door. He tells them He will spew them out of His mouth. He tells them He is rebuking and chastening them because He loves them. He tells them to repent and He will come in and dine.

This is a great warning given in scripture of how Christ deals with His church. You don't think churches become lukewarm. It can happen, and very easily. God is longsuffering, but there comes a time when He renders judgement. Judgement would fall on this church unless they repent. The same thing can happen to a church today that becomes lukewarm and fails to repent. We've seen churches that dried up and died. They once thrived, but now they are long gone.

 

[menageriekeeper]

This isn't about whether or not the bible says Christ offers salvation to every man. This is about whether Revelation 3:20 says that.

Oh, so what you are saying is, we shouldn't interpret scripture with scripture.

 

[webdog]

The one which Jesus refers to as a church.

Your problem is you are placing your opinion onto scripture. You are concluding based on your opinions that this must be an apostate church. Scripture gives you no license for that. Scripture calls this a church. The Son of God didn't say this was an apostate church. He said it is a church. A church with issues, a church that has grown lukewarm, a church in need of repentence, but a church nonetheless. Corinth was a church with many things needing correction, but was still referred to as a church. If the bible calls something a church, it is a church, period. It isn't up for debate. We can't conclude otherwise. My opinion and your opinion do not matter. Scripture says it is a church that has become lukewarm.

It's not my opinion that Christ is the head of the church, that is what the Bible says. Kinda hard to be the head of a church that you are on the outside of, a church that makes you want to puke (not the "lukewarm" the modern Christendom understands the term to mean, but what John meant). A church that has become putrid that needs to be vomited out and has Christ on the outside is as MacArthur puts it, a church in name only. That is the understanding the context allows.

 

[RAdam]

Oh, so what you are saying is, we shouldn't interpret scripture with scripture.

What I'm saying is you cannot make a text say something it does not say, even if that something is a truth according to scripture. You cannot ignore the audience to whom a statement was directed and apply it to a totally different audience.

For instance, consider the Sermon on the Mount. Matthew 5 clearly declares that the audience to whom Jesus spoke were His disciples. Therefore, when Jesus tells them to turn the other cheek, love their enemies, and such like, He is speaking to His disciples. Some have tried to apply this to governmental bodies, but that was not the audience Christ addressed. Such an application does harm to the text by ignoring the audience to whom it was directed and applying it to a totally different audience.

Even if a universal offer of salvation was a scriptural truth (I don't believe it is), that still isn't what the text is saying. The audience to whom this text was directed was a church. The door Jesus said He was knocking on was the door of the church. The people He addressed and encouraged to repent were members of the church, who had professed belief in Jesus Christ. The thing He offered them was fellowship, not salvation to heaven. To make this an offer of eternal salvation to every single human being in the world is to rip the text from its context and mar the entire message of the text to suit your theological fancy. We must not do this under any circumstances.