Free Will Origin of Sin

[Dave G]

Did Satan have Free Will when he sinned?

Yes.

The lost are not dead in sin.

" Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" ( Romans 5:1 )

Is this spiritual death, or physical, or both?

" This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness." ( Ephesians 4:17-19 )

That is what spiritual death is like.
Past feeling towards God...having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God...working all uncleanness with greediness.
If a person's heartfelt desire is to disobey God and not to genuinely want to obey Him out of love, then to me, they are dead in their sins.


An old pastor of mine once told me, "He gives us a new "want to"".
That is what it is to be alive towards God...to have a new "want to".

It's not a religious, "I'll do anything to keep from going to Hell" want-to, but a real one that obeys out of love...even though stumbling into all sorts of stuff.
Genuine repentance from sin is what characterizes a new creature, not a dead one.


May God bless you.

 

[Dave G]

Can anyone tell me, if we are ad dead to sin as Christians as were dead spiritually when we were lost the how come we can still sin

Scripture declares in Romans 7:15-25, the reason why Paul still sinned:

" For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

His no-good flesh, which he was still living in, was constantly at war with his internal desires to obey God.


It also declares why we as believers still sin:

" [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. " ( Galatians 5:16-17 )

But we are dead to sin

Yes, we as believers are dead to sin.

" What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" ( Romans 6:1-2 )

" Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." ( Romans 6:8-11 )

We must reckon ourselves dead to sin, in our minds, because in our flesh dwells no good thing.

It's "positional"...
The difference between "state" and "standing".

In Christ, the believer is dead to sin.
In the flesh, we are prone to it apart from the miraculous power of the Spirit.


May His blessings be upon you.

 

[Revmitchell]

Ypu guys keep missing the point

 

[Revmitchell]

If when we are lost we are spiritually dead like a corps (incapable of respondong to anything spiritual) then we should also be dead (like a corps) to sin incapable of sinning. In order to be consistent the analogy of dead like a corps must be the exact same both ways.

 

[robycop3]

Eve, then Adam, CHOSE to sin by following Sneaky Snake's suggestions, insteada continuing to obey God in everything. And satan chose to sin himself.

Simple fact - God didn't want robots! He did NOT create beings incapable of the slightest disobedience. He wants beings who love Him for what He is, of their own free will.

By that same free will, we CHOOSE to repent of our sins, CHOOSE to believe in Jesus as Savior & Forgiver of our sins, & CHOOSE to follow Him. While God has pre-chosen some for special service to Him, such as Moses, Samuel, Jeremiah, eleven of Jesus' disciples, and Paul, if we read their stories, we see they still could've chosen to not obey God. And we see Jesus gave even Judas the chance to repent, by making it known to Judas that He was aware of Judas' plan to betray Him.

So let us thank God for allowing us to come to jesus, and thank Jesus for forgiving our sins & for bearing the penalty for them.

 

[Dave G]

If when we are lost we are spiritually dead like a corps (incapable of respondong to anything spiritual) then we should also be dead (like a corps) to sin incapable of sinning.

Why?
Spiritually dead is alive to sin, but dead towards God..
Spiritually alive means dead to sin and alive towards God..

The difference between the two natures.
One is walking one way, the other is walking the other way.

In order to be consistent the analogy of dead like a corps must be the exact same both ways.

That's the amazing thing about God's word...it's inconsistent to the natural mind, but we as believers take it by faith, even though it appears to be inconsistent and contradictory.
It's addressed to the hearing of faith.

 

[Revmitchell]

Why?
Spiritually dead is alive to sin, but dead towards God..
Spiritually alive means dead to sin and alive towards God..

The difference between the two natures.
One is walking one way, the other is walking the other way.



That's the amazing thing about God's word...it's inconsistent to the natural mind, but we as believers take it by faith, even though it appears to be inconsistent and contradictory.
It's addressed to the hearing of faith.

So dead, in scripture means a corps to calvinists but dead also means not a corps to calvinists when it is convenient. God it!

 

[Rockson]

Revmitchell--->If when we are lost we are spiritually dead like a corps (incapable of respondong to anything spiritual) then we should also be dead (like a corps) to sin incapable of sinning.

Why?
Spiritually dead is alive to sin, but dead towards God..
Spiritually alive means dead to sin and alive towards God..

The difference between the two natures.

Well Dave the two natures is the very issue.

One is walking one way, the other is walking the other way.

Yes but how does that come any way close to addressing the poster's point? To readers I trust you know what the point is. If the LOST which are spiritually dead CANNOT respond to God so how is it once they're ALIVE they can go into sin? It should mean they can ONLY go the way of righteousness. If Calvinists are going to create a spiritual law in regard to how natures work then why shouldn't it be demanded they be consistent?

That's the amazing thing about God's word...it's inconsistent to the natural mind, but we as believers take it by faith, even though it appears to be inconsistent and contradictory.
It's addressed to the hearing of faith.

I'm sorry Dave but that right there is what anyone having discourse with Calvinists that is absolutely infuriating. When it's revealed your theology seriously lacks consistency you fall back on I know it doesn't seem to add up but it's a mystery and that the natural mind can't understand it. But laws are law! 1 + 1 = 2. If theology was a mathematically equation you can't say 1 +1 = 3 and have anyone of a rational mind respect it.

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm sorry Dave but that right there is what anyone having discourse with Calvinists that is absolutely infuriating. When it's revealed your theology seriously lacks consistency you fall back on I know it doesn't seem to add up but it's a mystery and that the natural mind can't understand it. But laws are law! 1 + 1 = 2. If theology was a mathematically equation you can't say 1 +1 = 3 and have anyone of a rational mind respect it.

They have to move the goal post in order to hold to their doctrine.

 

[InTheLight]

I'm sorry Dave but that right there is what anyone having discourse with Calvinists that is absolutely infuriating. When it's revealed your theology seriously lacks consistency you fall back on I know it doesn't seem to add up but it's a mystery and that the natural mind can't understand it. But laws are law! 1 + 1 = 2. If theology was a mathematically equation you can't say 1 +1 = 3 and have anyone of a rational mind respect it.

"It's a mystery." The Calvinist's refrain when painted into a corner by their illogical and inconsistent theology.

 

[TCassidy]

The new man can sin but it is forgiven

Wrong again.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[Mr. Roy]

Rockson - I for one don't see any mystery here at all. Being made alive by the gift of faith may be a one-time act of God, but the implications this has for the subsequent believer is a long and drawn out process as the natural man is being mortified on a daily basis. Some days we win, others we lose, and we will all stand to give account of our overall efforts in the exercise of the faith that is granted to us. That effort never stops, and is identified as the process of sanctification. We all have attachments to the old man in us, which is why we are still drawn to sin. Therefore, we who are "alive" can still disobey, though we now possess a blood covering against its lethal effects. In this respect the saved can "only go the way of righteousness" - not ours, but His imputed one. The good news the gospel is indeed awesome. For the individual who has no faith however, nothing is left but to continue in their sin, the natural inheritance left to us all in Adam. The fulcrum point to each path in life is the gift of faith.

 

[loDebar]

Wrong again.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

You do not sin? Paul said He did, even though he did both want to.

 

[Dave G]

So dead, in scripture means a corps to calvinists but dead also means not a corps to calvinists when it is convenient. God it!

No, I don't think you've "got it", and I have no idea why this seems so hard to believe...that "dead in sins" means dead on the inside, towards God.
"Dead" in Scripture does not always mean "dead", physically...it also can mean "dead", spiritually.

What do you think "quickened" means?

" give or restore life to."
That is the dictionary meaning for it.
So, if "dead" does not mean "dead", spiritually ( Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:5 ), then what does it mean?

They have to move the goal post in order to hold to their doctrine.

That's the second time in recent memory that you've made reference to "goal posts".
What "goal posts"?
Salvation isn't something that can be won, like a football game...
It's a gift, not a reward for yardage traveled, downs completed and points won in the end zone.

There are no "requirements"; there are only evidences, commandments and declarations.
There is God's word, and there are men who believe it and men who do not.

For example:

" Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." ( Psalms 65:4 )

What do you see when you read this?
I can tell you what I see...exactly what it states.
He chooses, and He causes a man or woman to approach Him.
It's no more mysterious than that.


Man cannot negotiate with God to gain something that can only be given from His end.
With respect, the "rules" were never the way you seem to think they are.

Here's something I learned over 40 years ago in the Baptist church I grew up in ( even though they taught "Traditionalism" ):

God saves, and God casts into Hell.
All men are responsible, guilty sinners, worthy of everlasting punishment.
Only those that believe on Christ for the forgiveness of their sins are saved...period.

Those are the only "goal posts" I see in Scripture to this day.
No one moved them...they were always there.
Have I said anything that goes "out of bounds"?

I don't think so...I think that what I've presented, in many threads, are the Scriptures that fill in the details behind all those points.
Regrettably, what I also believe is, that you're just not seeing the "goal posts" clearly enough.




May God bless you, sir.

 

[Dave G]

"It's a mystery." The Calvinist's refrain when painted into a corner by their illogical and inconsistent theology.

Yes, I'll admit that, to you, it seems illogical and inconsistent.
To me, it's as clear as the light of day.

On a side note, I still don't follow John Calvin's teachings, and I never have.
It might look like I do, but I can assure you, he and I are just a bit different.


May He bless you with His grace abundantly.

 

[TCassidy]

You do not sin?

The new man does not. The old man does.

Paul said He did

Yes. His old man sinned. His new man did not.

 

[Dave G]

The difference between the two natures.
One is walking one way, the other is walking the other way.

Yes but how does that come any way close to addressing the poster's point?

It speaks directly to the will.

The "natural man" ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ) is dead in sins, with no desire ( will ) to be reconciled to God.
He wants to hold on to as much sin as possible...unrighteousness.
He might be religious, but his heart is wide open to God, who can see it.
The only thing he really wants, is a "fire escape".

The "spiritual man" ( 1 Corinthians 2:15 ) is alive towards God...is born again, and desires ( wills ) what God desires.
Righteousness.
His heart has been changed by God...it's also wide open and only God can see it ( He sees his handiwork ).
The only thing he really wants, is a relationship with the one who saved him.
In the process, he gets the "fire escape".

Here is the OP's first post again for consideration:

Did Satan have Free Will when he sinned?

Yes?, then Free Will Exists
No?, Then God is the origin of Sin

What say Ye?

I said "Yes".

Then I told him why I said yes.

Free will exists.
But it doesn't determine a person's destiny...God does.
Scripture gets into much more detail than a simple "yes".

Your turn:
What does "free" mean to you?

Neutral?
Unbiased?
Uncoerced?
Uninfluenced?

According to what I see in Scripture, Satan's will was uncoerced...
It was never neutral or unbiased ( He stated, "I will be like the Most High!" ( Isaiah 14:14 ) ), but it was uninfluenced by God to sin.
Lucifer did it all by himself.
So did Adam, so did Eve ( she was deceived, but still had a choice to make ).

But that's not where Scripture ends...with freedom of choice.
If it did, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

It tells us that man is hopelessly in rebellion towards God due to a love of sin ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ) and a hatred of God for commanding him to repent.

I'm not sure why you cannot see it.
But to me, you can't see it, because the questions you ask are answered by the first 3 chapters of Romans, and I trust that you have a Bible.

I wish you well, sir.

 

[InTheLight]

To me, it's as clear as the light of day.

The mysteries of God are clear as the light of day. I wish I were so enlightened but I guess I'm not worthy.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[Dave G]

The mysteries of God are clear as the light of day. I wish I were so enlightened but I guess I'm not worthy.

All believers in Jesus Christ know and love His words ( John 8:47, John 10:27 ).
It's been given to them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 13:11-12, 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 ), they know the truth ( 1 John 2:20-21 ) and the Holy Spirit is their Teacher ( 1 John 2:27 ).


You're a believer, is this not true of you?
I would hope so, good sir.

 

[loDebar]

The new man does not. The old man does.

Yes. His old man sinned. His new man did not.

Do you mean to say, you have not disappointed God since you receive salvation?