Free Will- Result of Emotional Handicap?

[Luke2427]

Someone appealed to mystery as an explanation for the fact that divine sovereignty and human free will coincide. Michael said that it was like Jesus being fully man and fully God.


The problem is that the Bible does TEACH that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. The Bible does NOT teach that sinful men have a free will.

Every time folks see the word "choose" the think that implies free will. It does not.

Will is bound to desire. Desire is shaped by external forces.

I like calf liver and gravy over rice. Do you?

Probably not- most people don't.

I do not like onions. Do you?

You probably eat them on your burger. Most folks do.

Now if I sat before you identical proportions of calf liver and a Krystal cheeseburger and said, "Choose", you would probably CHOOSE the Krystal burger.

Not me. Those things are covered in diced onions.

Did you make a choice? Yes. Was your will to choose completely free with no inclinations to the one or the other? Absolutely not. If you are like most folks I know your will was bound to choose the burger.

Men always choose what they most want. If you were to choose the stuff you did not like it would be because you wanted to make a point- you still would be doing what you most wanted.

Why would you not choose the calf liver? Because you do not want it. Now here's the kicker- Why did you not want it?

Forces outside of you molded your wants. You did not form your taste buds- God did. You did not decide into which family you would be born- God did. You did not decide in which environment and culture you would be raised- God did.

EVERYTHING that molded your desire against calf liver was determined by God.

So is your will really free? No. God determined in eternity past that you would choose the Krystal burger.

At the same time in eternity past God determined I would choose the calf liver.

Now what Arminians do at this point, because the wheels in their mind go into over drive thinking about all the negative connotations of this truth, they abandon rational argument and dive headfirst into emotion. They stop THINKING and start FEELING.

And they say: YOU ARE SAYING THAT GOD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SIN!!!!! And in comes the word "rape"- it is kind of funny- that one ALWAYS comes up.

And then you can't reason with them anymore. Truth doesn't matter. Logic is thrown out the door.

They DON'T CARE what logic proves; they don't like the idea they feel it leads to- and they're done. It doesn't matter if the BIBLE teaches it. It doesn't matter if logic demands it. They don't care. They don't want to EVEN CONSIDER what may be true beyond this point.

Calvinists are the ones who keep thinking at this point- and they are able to go the next step and find out that God is EVEN MORE GLORIOUS than they had dreamed. They find out that God does indeed DECREE all things for the highest of purposes. They find that the Bible is jam packed with this glorious truth.

Arminians are handicapped by irrational emotionalism. They are thus left in the dark on this matter.

 

[Old Union Brother]

Luke I pray for you. I hope that you find peace this Christmas.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Someone appealed to mystery as an explanation for the fact that divine sovereignty and human free will coincide. Michael said that it was like Jesus being fully man and fully God.


The problem is that the Bible does TEACH that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. The Bible does NOT teach that sinful men have a free will.

Every time folks see the word "choose" the think that implies free will. It does not.

Will is bound to desire. Desire is shaped by external forces.

I like calf liver and gravy over rice. Do you?

Probably not- most people don't.

I do not like onions. Do you?

You probably eat them on your burger. Most folks do.

Now if I sat before you identical proportions of calf liver and a Krystal cheeseburger and said, "Choose", you would probably CHOOSE the Krystal burger.

Not me. Those things are covered in diced onions.

Did you make a choice? Yes. Was your will to choose completely free with no inclinations to the one or the other? Absolutely not. If you are like most folks I know your will was bound to choose the burger.

Men always choose what they most want. If you were to choose the stuff you did not like it would be because you wanted to make a point- you still would be doing what you most wanted.

Why would you not choose the calf liver? Because you do not want it. Now here's the kicker- Why did you not want it?

Forces outside of you molded your wants. You did not form your taste buds- God did. You did not decide into which family you would be born- God did. You did not decide in which environment and culture you would be raised- God did.

EVERYTHING that molded your desire against calf liver was determined by God.

So is your will really free? No. God determined in eternity past that you would choose the Krystal burger.

At the same time in eternity past God determined I would choose the calf liver.

Now what Arminians do at this point, because the wheels in their mind go into over drive thinking about all the negative connotations of this truth, they abandon rational argument and dive headfirst into emotion. They stop THINKING and start FEELING.

And they say: YOU ARE SAYING THAT GOD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SIN!!!!! And in comes the word "rape"- it is kind of funny- that one ALWAYS comes up.

And then you can't reason with them anymore. Truth doesn't matter. Logic is thrown out the door.

They DON'T CARE what logic proves; they don't like the idea they feel it leads to- and they're done. It doesn't matter if the BIBLE teaches it. It doesn't matter if logic demands it. They don't care. They don't want to EVEN CONSIDER what may be true beyond this point.

Calvinists are the ones who keep thinking at this point- and they are able to go the next step and find out that God is EVEN MORE GLORIOUS than they had dreamed. They find out that God does indeed DECREE all things for the highest of purposes. They find that the Bible is jam packed with this glorious truth.

Arminians are handicapped by irrational emotionalism. They are thus left in the dark on this matter.

OK, if this is some evil conspiracy to get me to eat liver, you can forget about it. Yuk, Yuk, Yuk.

 

[John Toppass]

HMMMMM So your saying mans ability to choose is no different from a dog that chooses dry food over moist food or visa versa. (this is just an example, Luke2427 did not exactly say this, it needs disclaimer so he doesn't rant for days about it)

Dt 30:19 tells us that we have choice. The scripture is chalked full of those who made the right or wrong choice. The rich young ruler chose not do what Christ had told him. There are many examples in the scripture.

This has nothing to do with limiting God's sovereignty, it is God's total sovereignty that He gave man choice as a way of creating him above the other creatures in His creation.

This ability to choose came before Arminius or Calvin was even born. God did not need either of these men to explain His word to His people. However, Satan will use worship and idolization of these men to keep other men in the dark.

I am tempted to state that it is a lack of intelligence that makes so called Christians become followers of men who are unscriptual in many areas of their lives. But, then I realize many so called intelligent people also fall in this category, it is the work of the evil one who deceives these followers.

There are many doctrinal differences that are just that --- differences. But the only people that are handicapped with irrational emotion are those who ALWAYS insist that none are right but them and yet they idolize men over other men even when these men conflict with scripture.

There is only one way to the Father and that is thru the Son.

CHOOSE to follow Jesus Christ, not men who have lived and died and they are still dead. It is a choice given to us by GOD.

 

[quantumfaith]

Luke, just to clear it up for me, I think you have said as much on another thread.

You do believe that God intentionally created sin, in order that He might be glorified? Is that a correct statement?

Sin did not come from mans choice of action but from God's intent?

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, just to clear it up for me, I think you have said as much on another thread.

You do believe that God intentionally created sin, in order that He might be glorified? Is that a correct statement?

Sin did not come from mans choice of action but from God's intent?

No sir, I am very careful NOT to use the word "created".

He decreed it, he willed that it should exist.

And yes, he did so because it is impossible that he can have mercy on sinners if there is no sin.

Therefore it is impossible for him to display mercy and grace and, yes, wrath judgment if there is no sin.

That does not mean that God forces anybody to do something against their will- though that would certainly be his prerogative.

It means that God does everything PRIMARILY for his own glory for that is the highest and noblest of motives for anything, and God, being God, cannot have anything other than the highest and noblest of motives for ANYTHING he does. So God willed that sin should be so that he might magnify his great grace, mercy and wrath whereby God will receive GREAT glory forever.

 

[Luke2427]

HMMMMM So your saying mans ability to choose is no different from a dog that chooses dry food over moist food or visa versa. (this is just an example, Luke2427 did not exactly say this, it needs disclaimer so he doesn't rant for days about it)

Dt 30:19 tells us that we have choice. The scripture is chalked full of those who made the right or wrong choice. The rich young ruler chose not do what Christ had told him. There are many examples in the scripture.

This has nothing to do with limiting God's sovereignty, it is God's total sovereignty that He gave man choice as a way of creating him above the other creatures in His creation.

This ability to choose came before Arminius or Calvin was even born. God did not need either of these men to explain His word to His people. However, Satan will use worship and idolization of these men to keep other men in the dark.

I am tempted to state that it is a lack of intelligence that makes so called Christians become followers of men who are unscriptual in many areas of their lives. But, then I realize many so called intelligent people also fall in this category, it is the work of the evil one who deceives these followers.

There are many doctrinal differences that are just that --- differences. But the only people that are handicapped with irrational emotion are those who ALWAYS insist that none are right but them and yet they idolize men over other men even when these men conflict with scripture.

There is only one way to the Father and that is thru the Son.

CHOOSE to follow Jesus Christ, not men who have lived and died and they are still dead. It is a choice given to us by GOD.

John, you're a mess. You literally just said that Calvinists are deceived by the Evil One.


Furthermore, it has been explained very clearly to you that NNE on baptistboard WORSHIPS and IDOLIZES Calvin, yet, in addition to accusing Calvinists, not of being mistaken, but deceived by the Evil One, you call some of us worshipers of men and idolaters.


It is a waste of time to try and have an intelligent exchange with you.

 

[preacher4truth]

No sir, I am very careful NOT to use the word "created".

He decreed it, he willed that it should exist.

And yes, he did so because it is impossible that he can have mercy on sinners if there is no sin.

Therefore it is impossible for him to display mercy and grace and, yes, wrath judgment if there is no sin.

That does not mean that God forces anybody to do something against their will- though that would certainly be his prerogative.

It means that God does everything PRIMARILY for his own glory for that is the highest and noblest of motives for anything, and God, being God, cannot have anything other than the highest and noblest of motives for ANYTHING he does. So God willed that sin should be so that he might magnify his great grace, mercy and wrath whereby God will receive GREAT glory forever.

God created the entire universe. He knew all that would happen in doing so, even the sin that would be rampant in the world.

He saw wisdom in all of this, and that He would be able to reach into sinful mans heart and save him. All of this so we could know Him, and glorify Him.

Twist this how any of you want, but it's the plain truth. I think many many people will be shocked at who God actually is, and are shocked even now as I type about things in Scriptures concerning His Son that they had never looked at. Some even seem appalled. They also get appalled about God in the OT.

We should look at the whole counsel of God, our entire Scriptures if you will, to understand as best we can all the attributes of God.

Bottom line, He created this entire world, allowing all of it to take place. I have no problem with Holy, Righteous, Eternal God being fully responsible in that, and wholly trust Him.

Why do we feel the need to explain away things because we just don't get it, or because the truth about God doesn't fit our preconceived concept of who He is?

 

[Jarthur001]

You do believe that God intentionally created sin, ............

It can't happen. The very nature of God and what sin is, would mean it could never happen. Sin is a path away from God. At the same time, God allows sin and uses sin in his plan. Did God know Adam would sin? Did he have the power to stop Adam? YES

But He allowed Adam to sin and in the end God will bring glory to Himself, because of it.

Sin did not come from mans choice of action but from God's intent?

Both are true. Mans will is not the answer but the problem. This is why it is address this way throughout Scripture..."Not my WILL, But your will (Gods) be done.

 

[preacher4truth]

I often wonder, when Satan fell, if his fall had to do with rebellion at God concerning the fact that God is Sovereign, and does as He wills to do, and Satan demanded free will, to do as he pleases, perhaps angry at God for being in total control, and wanted to make his own decisions and choices?

 

[quantumfaith]

May the raindrops fall lightly on your brow.

May the soft winds freshen your spirit.

May the sunshine brighten your heart

May the burdens of the day rest lightly upon you.

And may God enfold you in the mantle of His love.

 

[John Toppass]

John, you're a mess. You literally just said that Calvinists are deceived by the Evil One.


Furthermore, it has been explained very clearly to you that NNE on baptistboard WORSHIPS and IDOLIZES Calvin, yet, in addition to accusing Calvinists, not of being mistaken, but deceived by the Evil One, you call some of us worshipers of men and idolaters.


It is a waste of time to try and have an intelligent exchange with you.

Luke it seems that you read posts the same way you read scripture and that is you only read what you want and twist what you want to say what you want.

By the way, I am not equating any posts as equal to scripture ( I thought this disclaimer necessary so that Luke2427 can't claim that was what I was doing)

I know what you mean, it does seem difficult to have an intelligent exchange with you (many agree). I have dumbed down as much as I thought I could. I will try to dumb down even more, but I am not sure even then we will be on the same level. Maybe this is futile.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke it seems that you read posts the same way you read scripture and that is you only read what you want and twist what you want to say what you want.

By the way, I am not equating any posts as equal to scripture ( I thought this disclaimer necessary so that Luke2427 can't claim that was what I was doing)

I know what you mean, it does seem difficult to have an intelligent exchange with you (many agree). I have dumbed down as much as I thought I could. I will try to dumb down even more, but I am not sure even then we will be on the same level. Maybe this is futile.

John, nobody on here thinks I am dumb but perhaps you and Winman. Plenty of folks think, and rightly so, that I am too abrasive some times, but nobody thinks I am "dumb".

But thanks for the classy insult.

Merry Christmas to you and yours!

I saw you in a red apron on your facebook picture. Are you going to smoke or fry a turkey this year?

 

[John Toppass]

May the raindrops fall lightly on your brow.

May the soft winds freshen your spirit.

May the sunshine brighten your heart

May the burdens of the day rest lightly upon you.

And may God enfold you in the mantle of His love.

Thanks for this post, that is really nice, same to you.

Merry Christmas

 

[Jarthur001]

I often wonder, when Satan fell, if his fall had to do with rebellion at God concerning the fact that God is Sovereign, and does as He wills to do, and Satan demanded free will, to do as he pleases, perhaps angry at God for being in total control, and wanted to make his own decisions and choices?

Pretty much...yes.

Its always about who is in control.

Satan wanted his will over Gods will....which is SIN.
Adam wanted his will over Gods will....which is SIN.
Pharaoh wanted his will over Gods will...which is SIN.

Today, we have some Christians demanding man have his own will.....

The will is the problem. Its bound with a pride of selfwill, and cannot come to God, save he change mans heart.

 

[preacher4truth]

Pretty much...yes.

Its always about who is in control.

Satan wanted his will over Gods will....which is SIN.
Adam wanted his will over Gods will....which is SIN.
Pharaoh wanted his will over Gods will...which is SIN.

Today, we have some Christians demanding man have his own will.....

The will is the problem. Its bound with a pride of selfwill, and cannot come to God, save he change mans heart.

Not even Satan has free will.

 

[quantumfaith]

Thanks for this post, that is really nice, same to you.

Merry Christmas

John, the wife and I recently visited Ireland. The people are so warm and inviting. They truly, as indicated by their history are "warrior poets". However, they are in desperate need of some evangelical influence.

 

[John Toppass]

John, nobody on here thinks I am dumb but perhaps you and Winman. Plenty of folks think, and rightly so, that I am too abrasive some times, but nobody thinks I am "dumb".

But thanks for the classy insult.

Merry Christmas to you and yours!

I saw you in a red apron on your facebook picture. Are you going to smoke or fry a turkey this year?

Luke, I did not say you were dumb. I said I would try to communcate better with you. Dumb is an ambiguous term, use it to your advantage.


Luke, I do not want to side track thread but you are the OP so I will answer.

That picture was from the cooking I did at my sisters wedding last year in MO.

I leave the turkey to the skills of my wife in the kitchen. However I will be smoking brisket, boston butts (for pulled pork), tenderloin, BB ribs (baby back not baptist board), fatties, baked beans on the smoker and ABTs (stuffed jalapeños).

This will be for bringing in the New Year.

BTW Luke, we do have something in common-------------- FOOD (we must be baptist):thumbs:

Merry Christmas to you and yourn!

 

[zrs6v4]

Not even Satan has free will.

Yes and No. Same with man.

They both act within their natures. Man is under the rule of Satan prior to salvation.

Satan can only do what God permits him to do. God uses Satan's free will choices to establish God's ultimate purposes.

Judas is a great example.

God hates sin, doesn't tempt, create, or cause it, yet sovereignly uses it for greater purposes that are incredibly good.

It is comforting to know this for many reasons such as:

1. There is no such thing as luck, chance, or error in God's will. Everything has a good purpose to God's glory. This is the most joyful thing.

2. When terrible things happen, God is still in control. This is comforting. This is to say there is nothing that happens outside of God's control.

3. We are further bent to submit to God's will, even though we have no idea how or why things happen. This sanctifies us.

4. Much more can be said why this is a good thing.

 

[Luke2427]

Yes and No. Same with man.

They both act within their natures. Man is under the rule of Satan prior to salvation.

Satan can only do what God permits him to do. God uses Satan's free will choices to establish God's ultimate purposes.

Judas is a great example.

God hates sin, doesn't tempt, create, or cause it, yet sovereignly uses it for greater purposes that are incredibly good.

God is the ULTIMATE cause for all things.

Choices do not magically get to be exempt from the law of cause and effect.

Every effect has a cause. Every choice is an effect which is caused by one or more factors.

Those factors are controlled, ultimately, by God.

This is why "Of him and through him and to him are ALL THINGS."

The way God is exonerated from "causing" evil is that his MOTIVE for it is high and noble and pure.

Stab a man to death in his home and you are a murderer.

Stab a man to death on the battlefield and you are a hero.

Same action- two totally different motives.

God's motive for evil is pure.
Man's motive for performing evil is corrupt.

What makes something wrong is motive- not the action.

Joseph said, "You MEANT it for evil but God MEANT it for good."

It is comforting to know this for many reasons such as:

1. There is no such thing as luck, chance, or error in God's will. Everything has a good purpose to God's glory. This is the most joyful thing.

2. When terrible things happen, God is still in control. This is comforting. This is to say there is nothing that happens outside of God's control.

3. We are further bent to submit to God's will, even though we have no idea how or why things happen. This sanctifies us.

4. Much more can be said why this is a good thing.

Agreed.