free will vs. election???????

[salzer mtn]

Eccelente!



There is an example of this one verse (well 2)

" For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." 2 Cor 5:14

Here you have those who were dead, ALL DEAD compared with those who Christ died for ALL.

Then verse 15 refers to those the ones Christ died for and FOLLOWED HIM.

The Calvinist method is to show that since since v 15 says "to THEM" that is excluding that ALL of verse 14.

Illustration:

A CEO has a meeting with his employees, gathers them all in a big room, 500 capacity. The CEO tells ALL OF THEM "I am offering ALL OF YOU a bonus check if you want it, but you will have to come receive it in the back room in 15 minutes".

Fifteen minutes later, 200 employees meet the CEO in the back room and receive their check. The CEO makes a speech, "I offered you a gift and ALL OF YOU received it".

Now, when the CEO said this to the 200, did that mean that he did NOT offer it to ALL 500? No, it was offered to all, but only some CHOSE to receive it.

The newspapers then read, "CEFFERS MAJOR BONUS CHECK TO 500 PEOPLE". Even though there were only 200 people that received it, that the CEO spoke to both 200 people, and 500 both at the same time is not a contradiction. If the CEO said that he offered the check ONLY to 200 people, and 500 at the same time, then you have an explicit contradiction.

Do not fall for the Calvinist "sleight of hand" interpretation of scripture. Jesus offered a bonus check for ALL even though only some choose to receive the check.

There is a reason why the 300 didn't bother to except the bonus. They either didn't take the bonus because of pride or they felt like they didn't need the money. There is a reason why the majority won't accept Christ. They are of a mind they don't need him because in reality they don't see themselves as sinners. The only way the 300 will ever accept the bonus is to see their need of the bonus.

 

[HisWitness]

Oh boy........

oh boy is right-:godisgood::godisgood:

 

[preacher4truth]

you have missed the very purpose of what it was posted for friend--read it again and see that forever did not mean eternal(the word Olam should have been translated Age lasting and not forever--this error is in the old and new testament by the translators of some of our bibles

So what then is eternal life so we can cut to the chase and get closer to the 'roster number' for say NFL 2013?

 

[convicted1]

of the word Aeon in its diff word translations in our bible--and also the purpose of the FIRE(Lake of Fire--this is only mentioned 1 time in our bibles in Revelation)

I can gather at least 8 scriptures from the bible that will prove to all that the translation of the word Aeon into Forever was not right--it meant Age Lasting not eternal

For these causes men are blinded by tradition and cant see any further along the road until they clear the road

If you would like me to post the scriptures proving that the words Olam(old testament)Aeon(new testament) words which have the EXACT same meaning didn't mean eternal in their translations--I will be happy to do so:love2:

aion ahee-ohn' from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end).


`owlam o-lawm' or lolam {o-lawm'}; from 5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:--alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

The punishment of the wicked is the same as the joy of the saints will be, and that's eternal in existence.

 

[convicted1]

So what then is eternal life so we can cut to the chase and get closer to the 'roster number' for say NFL 2013?

I knew you would flesh this out. There's an old saying, "if you give someone a long enough rope, they'll hang themselves every time". He's tied the noose and put it around his neck w/o even knowing it.

 

[HisWitness]

So what then is eternal life so we can cut to the chase and get closer to the 'roster number' for say NFL 2013?

instead of asking that question try studying the scriptures I gave and see what the true translation of the scriptures ought to have been and it will come all together for you friend and God will enlighten you if you honestly seek for the true answer-

Youll not get your answer overnight my friend--I didn't get it overnight either

Gonna take honest study and seeking for the truth--too much tradition has blinded all of our minds and we cant see any more truth because of it

may God enlighten you and anyone who honestly seeks for his truth:love2:

 

[agedman]

1) There is no viable answer to the question of why God who desires all to be saved would only provide the opportunity for salvation to a chosen few. It is irrational.

Does not God use the irrational to confound the wise? Perhaps a cautious theologian would place more belief in what they consider irrational merely because God said it. Human understanding is not to be compared to God's and God doesn't have to answer, "Why."

2) The call of the gospel is not by imprinting the 10 commandments, it is presenting the good news than although you have sinned, and deserve eternal punishment, Christ died for you, and if you wholeheartedly trust in Him for your salvation, because He arose from the dead, and believe in the One (God Almighty) who sent Him, God is trustworthy and will credit your faith as righteousness, and place you spiritually in Christ, for whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

This is good preaching, Van. However, it is not OUR faith, but our belief that counts. Paul stated, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Faith and belief are not synonymous - though some take them to be. Faith is of God. Man has human faith that is faulty and frail, however the faith in which God instills and the believer cries out in belief does not fail. God cannot credit humankind faith but as sinful and unworthy. Salvation is totally of God.

3) Scripture says we are chosen through faith in the truth, not chosen and given faith.

This is true. However, because man is incapable and had no innate ability to self reconcile with God in their fallen nature, then it follows that even the belief expressed is in response to the faith given by God. "For without faith it is impossible to please Him" FOLLOWS belief according to Hebrews 11.

4) There certainly is not any salvation by corporate election, however that is not my view. I say we are individually chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, based on many verses including 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (which we discussed for many posts) states:

"But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through (in) sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."​

So what must be present at salvation according to this verse?

1) God has to chose the person FROM THE BEGINNING. - this is not corporate, but individuals that are chosen.
2) Sanctification (not a movement but a declaration) by the Spirit.
3) There must be faith in the truth.​

NOTE: see the work of the Spirit BEFORE faith in the truth? It is that work in the humankind that enables them to hear the truth and express what is already in their heart as to salvation.

See Romans:

"But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”​

What is in the heart will come out the mouth. James makes that clear when discussing water.

Faith from God implanted into the humankind expresses true repentance unto salvation. Such is the faith of the great Hebrews 11 folks. It is that faith that not only broke down Jericho walls, but Christ said would move mountains.

No humankind faith is able to do what God's faith can easily accomplish.

 

[convicted1]

instead of asking that question try studying the scriptures I gave and see what the true translation of the scriptures ought to have been and it will come all together for you friend and God will enlighten you if you honestly seek for the true answer-

Youll not get your answer overnight my friend--I didn't get it overnight either

Gonna take honest study and seeking for the truth--too much tradition has blinded all of our minds and we cant see any more truth because of it

may God enlighten you and anyone who honestly seeks for his truth:love2:

Deflection is never the answer. What exactly is eternal life?

 

[HisWitness]

aion ahee-ohn' from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end).


`owlam o-lawm' or lolam {o-lawm'}; from 5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:--alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

The punishment of the wicked is the same as the joy of the saints will be, and that's eternal in existence.

your comment here has just showed you haven't even looked at the scriptures I posted--you don't want to understand--you just want to bash--the scriptures are plainly speaking of age lasting and NOT eternal--try reading and you will see friend :godisgood::godisgood:

 

[preacher4truth]

I knew you would flesh this out. There's an old saying, "if you give someone a long enough rope, they'll hang themselves every time". He's tied the noose and put it around his neck w/o even knowing it.

Well, 'someone' hasn't made the team. My fault for jumping in w/o context and reading something into it all. Yet such a move makes choosing a final roster much simpler.

Eternal life = everlasting life. Like for ever.

Who was that 'Joey' preacher that espoused the heresy of ME? I listened to a partial 'sermon' of his against 'sugar' in that the Holy Spirit need be our only 'stimulant'. Talk about not being able to discern between physical and spiritual 'stimulation'. Poor John the Baptist out there eating honey!!!! If only 'Joey' could've been there to give him 'Sweet-n-Low' the whole world could now have been saved!!!!

- Blessings

 

[preacher4truth]

your comment here has just showed you haven't even looked at the scriptures I posted--you don't want to understand--you just want to bash--the scriptures are plainly speaking of age lasting and NOT eternal--try reading and you will see friend :godisgood::godisgood:

And you do err greatly. Gladly Jesus said those who say they see actually do not.

 

[convicted1]

So, how is eternal life "eternal", and yet, eternal death isn't eternal"?

 

[HisWitness]

And you do err greatly. Gladly Jesus said those who say they see actually do not.

How do I err brother--pls explain ?

 

[HisWitness]

So, how is eternal life "eternal", and yet, eternal death isn't eternal"?

here again your tradition is blinding your eyes to see--May God give you a ear to hear :love2::love2::love2:

 

[convicted1]

Wee, HW, the Greek word used for "everlasting" is the same used for "everlasting life" and "everlasting gospel". So I guess the "everlasting gospel" is but for a short time, too? It's G166 in the Strong's

 

[preacher4truth]

How do I err brother--pls explain ?

You said you see, Jesus says the contrary to those who claim such.

 

[preacher4truth]

Wee, HW, the Greek word used for "everlasting" is the same used for "everlasting life" and "everlasting gospel". So I guess the "everlasting gospel" is but for a short time, too? It's G166 in the Strong's

Yes, the Gospel faded off like in 1088 A.D. I believe it was like in November or sumpin. Can't remember the exact month 'cause I was so young then. Since then all new doctrines have become allowable!

 

[HisWitness]

And you do err greatly. Gladly Jesus said those who say they see actually do not.

by your own words you condemn yourself brother--you say that you see also according to your view--so whats the difference--I say that I see what God has shown me--im not saying I have arrived like the religious leaders of Christ's day was doing when he quoted them that verse. :godisgood:

 

[convicted1]

Also, the same Greek word used for "eternal" is used for "eternal life" and "eternal damnation"? How is punishment not eternal, yet joys in heaven shall be eternal, when the same Greek word is used?

 

[preacher4truth]

by your own words you condemn yourself --you say that you see also according to your view--so whats the difference--I say that I see what God has shown me--im not saying I have arrived like the religious leaders of Christ's day was doing when he quoted them that verse. :godisgood:

Not so. By the Word of Christ He condemns your words.