free will vs. election???????

[HeirofSalvation]

I call upon all Calvinists here to distance themselves from H.W's heresies........

 

[preacher4truth]

Brother if you had your father dieing at an early age and you mistreated him while he was alive--would you not be sorry unto him for your deeds ??

the answer is YES if you are truly a Christian--and so my example that I gave is of the same sort here.

All this straw man nonsense from one who with arbitray blindness endorses a well known liar on this board who has a diploma mill doctorate. To whit, if he honestly believes his lies he too is deceived.

That, and he also blasphemed.

His false accusations are commentary on his walk and sheds light upon his fruit. That and he is simply trolling. He gets his jollies in sowing discord and being malicious -- all are works of the flesh -- he is to be avoided.

It's amazing the unsubstantiable accusations they bring upon others. Would to God they saw their own misery, and would mourn for their own state, then they would find peace and obtain comfort.

But in all honesty I can never see such a thing happening in them. Something is sorely amiss with their walk.

Don't feed them, as they desire to be fed -- it feeds their fleshly walk, something they incessantly obey -- seemingly enslaved to it.

- Blessings

 

[HisWitness]

I call upon all Calvinists here to distance themselves from H.W's heresies........

I will follow the command of my Lord and Bless you once again brother and pray for you--and hope the Lord have mercy upon thee :jesus::jesus:

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

Perfect example of how Calvinists restate someone elses position, and then insert their own theology into the text where it doesn't say what the Bible says it does.

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

The passage is specifically about the restoration of Israel corporately, NOT INDIVIDUAL SALVATION. The context is the debate about why God chose Jacob (ISRAEL) over Esau (NOT ISRAEL). Because God made a promise to bless Abraham for his faithfulness, and all the other nations persecuted Israel and worshiped pagan gods. God has a REASON for choosing Israel of Edom, it was not arbitrary.

Of THOSE HE called, He gave the authority to the CFO (Jesus Christ) to write checks of redemption erasing all past, current, and future debts. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

As many as RECEIVED HIM gave he the power to become the sons of God. John 1:12 Notice the RECEIVE came BEFORE the power.

The CFO individually in the course of the working day of the chosen hand delivers to each the notice of redemption. "For by Grace you are saved through Faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the Gift of life."

It is the gift of GOD, not gift of life, and the gift is salvation not faith. There's not one single verse in the Bible that says faith or repentance is a gift. In Calvinist theology, faith is a work. So if faith is a gift, then you just said that God gave you the gift of works. Non sense.

Then it was noticed that the CEO had selected and the CFO had delivered, and some attempted to cover their lack of being chosen by hanging around those that were. "Parable of the virgins and oil."

How did those not chosen KNOW they were not chosen? Hanging around those who were chosen? That doesn't even make sense. Five of those 10 virgins were foolish. They CHOSE not to get oil for their lamps. Not to mention that Matthew 25 is about the TRIBULATION, not the church.

But it was evident that those chosen worked harder, were more loyal, and cared for the reputation and enhancement of the company. "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me."

So now you're advocating for the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove-WORKS. Should have left my analogy alone!

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.​

(This shows that there is absolutely NO FREE WILL nor Freedom to choose)

This says nothing about a man NOT having free will. Death means SEPARATION, not ANNIHILATION. Calvies here interpret death the same way Jehovah's Witnesses do. Adam was spiritually dead and still heard the voice of God, and responded to Him. Gen 3:9. The rich man in Luke 16, IN HELL (it doesn't get anymore spiritually dead then that) was still able to understand his wrong (evidenced by the desire to have his brothers warned), communicate with Abraham. Spiritually dead does not mean you can not hear or communicate, that's annihilation (the reason JW's don't believe in hell because they interpret death the same way you do.)

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.​

(This shows that NNE can claim any specialty or enhancement that caused God's eye to be cast upon them above everyone else.)

Non Cals don't disagree with that. We never claim that we are special because God told us to come to him by free will.

NOTICE - NO where is it taught that there is a general forgiveness of sins, nor even a general redemption offered to the world. To consider such is to deny this passage of Ephesians.

We don't claim that forgiveness is granted to anyone that does not repent and believe. You are interjecting that into the equation.

The believer is redeemed because God chose the person for redemption.
All the rest are lost because God chose not to redeem them.

God chooses not to redeem those who do not repent and believe. John 8:24, Acts 17:30:

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: "

 

[awaken]

Here's a question for all to ponder.

How many trying to convince Awaken, stopped what they were doing for a minute and PRAYED FOR HIM to understand what he seeks for?

I prayed! God if this is your truth...open my eyes! IF it is not of you give me a strong discernment to know it! So far...my eyes are not open to the fact that God only loves and saves certain ones and leaves the rest to perish!

I can not imagine telling someone that God did not pick them!

I am still open to hearing both arguments!

 

[HisWitness]

I prayed! God if this is your truth...open my eyes! IF it is not of you give me a strong discernment to know it! So far...my eyes are not open to the fact that God only loves and saves certain ones and leaves the rest to perish!

I can not imagine telling someone that God did not pick them!

I am still open to hearing both arguments!

think upon this again--think if God concluded ALL under Sin(through 1 man's disobedience)he did so that he might have mercy upon ALL(through 1 man's obedience)its true God chooses some in each generation for his purpose and Glory to shine unto the world to see--but the Glorius truth is that through 1 man's obedience MANY(all) SHALL BE MADE righteous--either in this life or after death they will come through the FIRE in repentance unto Christ--others reject this truth--but the text is very clear that ALL SHALL BE MADE(Future tense statement that will be accomplished)RIGHTEOUS

Many through 1 man were made(past tense statement that was accomplished through 1 man)SINNERS

Many through 1 man shall be made(future tense statement that will be accomplished in God;s time)RIGHTEOUS

 

[DrJamesAch]

Many through 1 man were made(past tense statement that was accomplished through 1 man)SINNERS

Many through 1 man shall be made(future tense statement that will be accomplished in God;s time)RIGHTEOUS

So only MANY were made sinners, but not ALL were made sinners?

Now here's the bad implication of this analogy.

Group One: SINNERS, Non Elect, determined to hell

Group Two: Elect, determined to salvation

If not all are sinners, that excludes group two, because group one is the only option. This means Jesus could not have died for Group 2 because Jesus died for sinners. But yet you have the elect in Group 2 going to heaven without having their sins paid for. That's universalism.

Got a huge problem with your interpretation of Romans 5 there buddy!

 

[convicted1]

Awaken,

I was blessed a while back to preach a sermon that should help you out, as well as go along with the OP.

Now, I never use notes, so what I am about to type, is from a "foggy" memory, so I may not "dot every 'I' and cross every 'T'".

Before we can react, God has to act. God acted a little over 2,000 years ago by sending His Son to die for us.

Before we can react, we have to have something to react to. There's this thing called the gospel to which we can react to.

Now, God acted, and then we have something to react to. We then have to hear the gospel.

When we hear, we have to be obedient to the gospel that we hear.

Then we have to receive that which we hear in humble obedience to the gospel message.

Then we need to be baptized in the "liquid grave" to answer the good conscience towards God. The water baptism doesn't save you, but should be done by every professing believer in Christ.

I used scripture with each step of this, but to make things as neat and compact as possible, I left them out. It took me about 40-45 minutes to preach this out. I usually don't go over 20-25 minutes, but God kept giving me this, and I needed to bring it all the way out. I don't like taking a long time to preach, so that I can leave time for my other Brothers to preach.

God predestined/elected His Son to die for the sin of the world(John 1:29, Heb. 2:9) (also Isa. 42, and John 15). Election/predestination flows through Christ and not mankind.

 

[Van]

An answer

OK..these kind of questions are confusing to me!

What was changed in Adam to make all become sinners (born sinners)?
What is changed in us when we become a child of God?

What happened to Adam after he sinned and knowingly ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? He was corrupted, i.e. his eyes were opened, and (2) he was separated from God, i.e. driven out of the garden. Separation is termed being dead, because the dead are separated from the living, do being dead in our sins, means we are separated from the living and holy God. Some try to add to the meaning of being "dead" i.e. separated, and claim if a person is dead, they have total spiritual inability and thus are unable to respond positively to the gospel. Lots of verses demonstrate this overreach is fiction.

Another claim is that the corruption is spread seminally, i.e. the corruption is in the DNA in the sperm of men, and so the offspring of Adam (all mankind except Christ) are corrupted. This too is a fiction. Note that when Adam's eyes were opened, Eve's eyes were opened at the same time. Now how did Adam's transgression corrupt Eve? Spiritually. Thus the corruption is in our human spirit, and unless our spirit is born anew spiritually, we cannot be in the presence of our holy God. Thus we are dead, separated from God, spiritually.

When God credits our faith as righteousness, and sets us apart in Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ and that corruption is removed, i.e. our body of flesh (sin) is removed.Thus, now a new creation, in spirit but not in our mortal flesh, we can enter heaven. Thus, when God puts us spiritually in Christ, we are no longer dead, but made alive (Ephesians 2:5) together [spiritually] with Christ. This is how we are spiritually changed when we are born anew, made a new creation, made righteous, made perfect, holy and blameless. At the second coming, when we are raised in glorified bodies, the presence of sin in our corrupt bodies will be removed, free at last, free at last, thank God Almighty, free at last.

 

[HisWitness]

So only MANY were made sinners, but not ALL were made sinners?

Now here's the bad implication of this analogy.

Group One: SINNERS, Non Elect, determined to hell

Group Two: Elect, determined to salvation

If not all are sinners, that excludes group two, because group one is the only option. This means Jesus could not have died for Group 2 because Jesus died for sinners. But yet you have the elect in Group 2 going to heaven without having their sins paid for. That's universalism.

Got a huge problem with your interpretation of Romans 5 there buddy!

the MANY in both cases are ALL of mankind

 

[Van]

An Answer

Thanks for all the reponses! A lot to think about!

Another question that comes to mind is...Why are we called to witness to people if God has already saved only certain ones?

Calvinism has no answer, Calvinism is irrational. They will say because God commanded. Thus moving the goal posts and avoiding the question why did God command us to witness to all, and desire all to be saved, and lay down His life as a ransom for all, if He had already chosen who would be saved before creation. Answer, He would not.

Calvinism has the cart before the horse. They read Ephesians 1:4 as saying we were chosen as foreseen individuals before creation. This view of course makes mush out of scripture, where the idea is whoever believes in His shall not perish but have eternal life. The key is the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, God choosing the target group of His Redemption plan. Thus each of us who have been individually chosen during our lifetime can say we were blessed before the foundation of the world, when God chose us [corporately] to be holy and blameless before Him. However, when were we made holy and blameless, after God put us spiritually in Christ. Thus we are made holy and blameless through Christ's death.

Another key to this view are the verses that say "many are called but few are chosen." Thus the choosing comes after the calling, not before. Just another verse that has to be rewritten to read few are chosen, but God has us call many anyway. Not how it reads. We are individually chosen during our lifetime through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13

 

[HisWitness]

So only MANY were made sinners, but not ALL were made sinners?

Now here's the bad implication of this analogy.

Group One: SINNERS, Non Elect, determined to hell

Group Two: Elect, determined to salvation

If not all are sinners, that excludes group two, because group one is the only option. This means Jesus could not have died for Group 2 because Jesus died for sinners. But yet you have the elect in Group 2 going to heaven without having their sins paid for. That's universalism.

Got a huge problem with your interpretation of Romans 5 there buddy!

ALL were made sinners through Adam(already done-nothing more has to be done--men are all sinners)
ALL shall be made righteous through Christ(something is yet to happen to make all righteous)

 

[agedman]

Perfect example of how Calvinists restate someone elses position, and then insert their own theology into the text where it doesn't say what the Bible says it does.

All I did was point out your illustration had weakness and made correction. That it doesn't fit YOUR theology just is more of a statement of how truly yours pointed to works being mingled into salvation that is all of God's Grace.

The passage is specifically about the restoration of Israel corporately, NOT INDIVIDUAL SALVATION. The context is the debate about why God chose Jacob (ISRAEL) over Esau (NOT ISRAEL). Because God made a promise to bless Abraham for his faithfulness, and all the other nations persecuted Israel and worshiped pagan gods. God has a REASON for choosing Israel of Edom, it was not arbitrary.

Then you have certainly proved my point. God chooses as He alone determines. "Jacob - I loved, Esau - I hate." (agedman's paraphrased version)

As many as RECEIVED HIM gave he the power to become the sons of God. John 1:12 Notice the RECEIVE came BEFORE the power.

Your argument here reminds me of the person who wants to say that vocalization must occur for salvation because the Scriptures state, "confess with thy mouth" before "believe in thine heart." If that is your view, it is really has no true Scriptural foundation.

It is the gift of GOD, not gift of life, and the gift is salvation not faith. There's not one single verse in the Bible that says faith or repentance is a gift. In Calvinist theology, faith is a work. So if faith is a gift, then you just said that God gave you the gift of works. Non sense.

Fist the statement about no single verse in the Bible about faith being a gift from God. Paul in Romans 12 speaks about God giving each believer the measure of faith necessary to do the work that is appointed to them. So there is a verse and you stand in error posting that there isn't.

I disagree with you that Calvinistic thinkers place faith as a work. I haven't read every writer, nor listened to every message from that group, but I have never read nor heard work as other than an extension resulting from the presence and exercising of God's hand in the life of the believer. That is that the believer is demonstrating by their work (and reputation) that Christ lives in them - this is as Paul taught, too.

How did those not chosen KNOW they were not chosen? Hanging around those who were chosen? That doesn't even make sense. Five of those 10 virgins were foolish. They CHOSE not to get oil for their lamps. Not to mention that Matthew 25 is about the TRIBULATION, not the church.

Sorry the illustration doesn't fit your "time line" theology. But the point made was still valid.

Does not Christ state that BOTH the tares and the grain will grow up together in the field? How did the tares get mixed up with the grain? If you follow the illustration, no doubt the enemy works at making replica pseudo believers.

So now you're advocating for the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove-WORKS. Should have left my analogy alone!

Your little story was faulty and begged for correction.

This says nothing about a man NOT having free will. Death means SEPARATION, not ANNIHILATION. Calvies here interpret death the same way Jehovah's Witnesses do. Adam was spiritually dead and still heard the voice of God, and responded to Him. Gen 3:9. The rich man in Luke 16, IN HELL (it doesn't get anymore spiritually dead then that) was still able to understand his wrong (evidenced by the desire to have his brothers warned), communicate with Abraham. Spiritually dead does not mean you can not hear or communicate, that's annihilation (the reason JW's don't believe in hell because they interpret death the same way you do.)

There is nothing I can quote of Scriptures to you in this matter that would sway your view. But, I will respond about Adam. Adam heard God because God called him. God must make the first move for a person to be converted. Adam hide from God and had no desire to have fellowship with God.

Using your own illustration of the rich man in hell: The ability to cry out and admit error does not lead to salvation. The rich man was still in hell. Paul states, "For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death."

God chooses not to redeem those who do not repent and believe. John 8:24, Acts 17:30:

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: "

Two problems seem to cloud over the sunshine of your thinking.

First - the Scriptures are clear that there is no "free will" outside the direct and purposed intervention of the Holy Spirit. Both the Cal and nonCal's agree with that. Humankind is either of the seed of Satan, or the seed of God. There is no in-between generic "free will, freedom of choice" seed - that is a lie of Satan perpetrated from the Garden of Eden. In more than one place the Scriptures place the heathen in the condition of being totally incapable and incapacitated in being able to relate to God in any meaningful way without the direct and purposed intervention of the Holy Spirit.

PLEASE!!!! Even the Non-cal view holds to that teaching - it isn't peculiar to the Cal side.

Second - The Scriptures are clear that God through the Ten Commandment being imprinted upon every man's heart calls all men to repentance. BUT that in no way indicates that that person has any innate ability to even desire to repent. Adam was called by God in the garden, but Adam had NO desire to meet with God and hid himself.

I am surprised you argue with Paul's writing of Ephesians. They are his words, not mine. I was merely showing how each section is to be taken literally and therefore applicable.

 

[Iconoclast]

Because there are other options. Scripture does not present such a dichotomy.


Add to that this false dichotomy is in direct contradiction to the idea of synergism that is also often espoused by those who hold to John Calvin's view.

This is not a valid response to my post in that you have not clarified anything.

Other options.....such as?

such a dichotomy- what do you mean exactly?

the idea of synergism I am a Monergist...is that what you meant to say?

often espoused by those who hold to John Calvin's view. offered my view....do not distract with Calvin here.

You did not answer what I posted about Hebrews 10....Go right ahead and either agree or disagree, but do so with what I asked about.:type:

 

[agedman]

Calvinism has no answer, Calvinism is irrational. They will say because God commanded. Thus moving the goal posts and avoiding the question why did God command us to witness to all, and desire all to be saved, and lay down His life as a ransom for all, if He had already chosen who would be saved before creation. Answer, He would not.

Calvinism has the cart before the horse. They read Ephesians 1:4 as saying we were chosen as foreseen individuals before creation. This view of course makes mush out of scripture, where the idea is whoever believes in His shall not perish but have eternal life. The key is the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, God choosing the target group of His Redemption plan. Thus each of us who have been individually chosen during our lifetime can say we were blessed before the foundation of the world, when God chose us [corporately] to be holy and blameless before Him. However, when were we made holy and blameless, after God put us spiritually in Christ. Thus we are made holy and blameless through Christ's death.

Another key to this view are the verses that say "many are called but few are chosen." Thus the choosing comes after the calling, not before. Just another verse that has to be rewritten to read few are chosen, but God has us call many anyway. Not how it reads. We are individually chosen during our lifetime through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Van, you and I spent many days and posts in discussion on this topic. I only respond here to let others know that there is another view.

Certainly "many are called" as it is with all humankind. God imprinting the ten commandments into every person is an indication that there is a call to what is right and wrong. But, "few are chosen" cannot be ignored. For out of all humankind that is called the only ones who will respond are those in whom God, through His own purposed work, has chosen.

I doubt that God who knows all things from the beginning has put blinders on and waits to see who is born and just who, in our lifetime, He will decide to choose. There is no "corporate" salvation supportable in the Scriptures. All salvation is individual, and directed to specific individuals.

Just letting casual readers know that Van and I have discussed this matter, before.

 

[HisWitness]

Van, you and I spent many days and posts in discussion on this topic. I only respond here to let others know that there is another view.

Certainly "many are called" as it is with all humankind. God imprinting the ten commandments into every person is an indication that there is a call to what is right and wrong. But, "few are chosen" cannot be ignored. For out of all humankind that is called the only ones who will respond are those in whom God, through His own purposed work, has chosen.

I doubt that God who knows all things from the beginning has put blinders on and waits to see who is born and just who, in our lifetime, He will decide to choose. There is no "corporate" salvation supportable in the Scriptures. All salvation is individual, and directed to specific individuals.

Just letting casual readers know that Van and I have discussed this matter, before.

all mankind is called with the general call---but few are chosen with the effectual call---simple as that

 

[convicted1]

Van, you and I spent many days and posts in discussion on this topic. I only respond here to let others know that there is another view.

Certainly "many are called" as it is with all humankind. God imprinting the ten commandments into every person is an indication that there is a call to what is right and wrong. But, "few are chosen" cannot be ignored. For out of all humankind that is called the only ones who will respond are those in whom God, through His own purposed work, has chosen.

I doubt that God who knows all things from the beginning has put blinders on and waits to see who is born and just who, in our lifetime, He will decide to choose. There is no "corporate" salvation supportable in the Scriptures. All salvation is individual, and directed to specific individuals.

Just letting casual readers know that Van and I have discussed this matter, before.

Why are many called, but only a few chosen?

 

[convicted1]

all mankind is called with the general call---but few are chosen with the effectual call---simple as that

Verses please? Also, what distinguishes the two from each other?

 

[preacher4truth]

Verses please? Also, what distinguishes the two from each other?

I was listening to D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones preach on this. Great message! He asked why a certain man gets nothing from preaching, and why yet another falls under conviction to repentance.

Concluding he says that the word of God comes with power to some, and not another (as per 1 Thess. 1:4ff?) and asked if any there were those to whom it came with power and converted them. As you have said none of this happens without the Spirit (in another thread by implication).

Such is the Spirit of God...as wind, going where it listeth (determines/desires) -- John 3:8 thus showing Sovereignty.

Not all things can be proven by a verse or verses, but upon contemplation of the entire counsel of God within soteriology.

- Blessings

 

[Aaron]

Awaken...a very good book for this is "the Doctrines of Grace" by James Montgomery Voice & Philip Ryken. You can get it in paperback or on kindle.

Ditto.

Also, The Bondage of the Will, by Martin Luther.:godisgood: