Free Will

[crixus]

I'm a Free Willer all the way and have never doubted it. But I know better than to get into a discussion with a Calvinist on the topic.

 

[Deacon]

Free will... even a heated topic of discussion among non-religious people.
It's a rather complicated topic.

Rob

 

[crixus]

Free will... even a heated topic of discussion among non-religious people.
It's a rather complicated topic.

Rob

Amen to that.

 

[TCassidy]

I'm a Free Willer all the way and have never doubted it. But I know better than to get into a discussion with a Calvinist on the topic.

Good idea. Calvinists cheat. They use the bible!

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm a Free Willer all the way and have never doubted it. But I know better than to get into a discussion with a Calvinist on the topic.

Lucifer thought free will existed.....he thought he could ascend above the throne of God. he was mistaken many times over.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;

; I will be like the most High.

 

[Rippon]

A few years ago on Fox News James Dobson was the guest on Sean Hannity's show.
Hannity said :"We've 30 seconds left. What is your view of Free Will?"

Being a non-theologian Dobson demurred and the segment was over.

Nobody with any view of the subject can do justice with just half a minute.

You may have seen an artist's picture of Calvin using Twitter: "Only 140 characters! You've
got to be kidding me!"

 

[utilyan]

Lucifer thought free will existed.....he thought he could ascend above the throne of God. he was mistaken many times over.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;

; I will be like the most High.

Using this logic, Lucifer can't make a mistake. Only God can make mistakes for him.

If you jump under water no matter how nicely you ask the water, it is going to drown you because it has no free will.

When you go to court you guys must accuse the bullets of murder, rather then the guys pulling the trigger, to be consistent.

 

[Iconoclast]

Using this logic, Lucifer can't make a mistake. Only God can make mistakes for him.

If you jump under water no matter how nicely you ask the water, it is going to drown you because it has no free will.

When you go to court you guys must accuse the bullets of murder, rather then the guys pulling the trigger, to be consistent.

Your will is not free...it is bound by your nature

 

[utilyan]

Your will is not free...it is bound by your nature

Well If I don't have a free will then your not debating me at all, Everything I say to you is authored directly by God. God says your wrong.

I could say hey well I am never free to express myself I have no free will, all things are doctored, distorted, by something else.

I am also without sin, never having choice and behavior of perfect submission to the forces who do have choice.


The mistake done here is you can only accept a God who is limited to being a control freak to get what he wants. In terms of power that is the most laughable. You can probably accept God putting out a fire with great flood of water, but the idea that God can put out a fire with a gasoline covered toothpick is inconceivable to you.

IMPOSSIBLE is something God eats for breakfast. Including the education of free will and creating beings of free will.

Flat out the God who can't create beings of free will is dumber then the one who can. He can only win a game of checkers by moving the pieces of his opponents.


You should consider Jesus Christ is our exemplar and the standard of all complete human faculties , he wasn't a mindless zombie robot.

There is nothing Jesus did you can't do yourself.

If my "nature" limits my free will, Then we have to say Jesus Christ has no free will either. Else he was never true human, the price remains to be paid and God has been defeated.



Its all excuses, excuses, excuses, The reason you sin is it is YOUR FAULT. Saying God did not provide for a way for me not to sin is a false accusation against God. And we heard it since genesis 3:
When Adam tried to pass the buck for his disobedience on Eve and eve on the serpent

 

[Alcott]

I need to make a will. You know any lawyer that will file it for free?

 

[JonC]

I'm a Free Willer all the way and have never doubted it. But I know better than to get into a discussion with a Calvinist on the topic.

Me too. While I (and probably everyone outside of philosophy) deny libertarian free-will, I do believe we choose our condemnation freely. We are not forced to sin.

Since you freely started a thread in the Cal/Arm debate section saying you are a free-willer not willing to debate the topic....was there a point to the thread?

 

[MB]

Good idea. Calvinists cheat. They use the bible!

And they generally loose because they do not go by the Bible on this subject at all. You show scriptures that you claim support your theories but after reading the chapter it's clear to see you have missed the meaning of the passage. For instance 1st cor 2.:14

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Read chapters 1 through three.
It's true as long as the natural man is thinking carnally he can't understand. How ever this verse is not stating that the natural man cannot think spiritually. This is a Calvinist addition to the scripture For instance Adam spoke with God about his sin after the fall. God is Spirit and to speak with God can only be done spiritually.
Of course your going to tell men we are spiritually dead and dead men do not speak but your still wrong because Adam was just as dead after the fall Yet he lied to God and blamed his sin on Eve. Read it in Gensis.

The term dead spiritually does not mean no longer animated. or even unconscious. it simply means with out God. It does not mean men cannot seek God because God Him Self told us to seek God with all our hearts. God does not force us to become Christians.
Jesus said He first chose us and we who accept His offer of Salvation choose Him second. Of course you claim we cannot choose because we have no freewill but you cannot prove this is true. You can only post a few verses with your added comment to make it seem as if you are right.
MB

 

[JonC]

Well If I don't have a free will then your not debating me at all, Everything I say to you is authored directly by God.

I don't understand your connection here. If our wills are indeed bound by our natures then why would everything you say be authored directly by God?

 

[JonC]

Your will is not free...it is bound by your nature

When I was introduced to the impossibility of libertarian free will - that our wills are indeed limited by our nature - it was not in the context of religion but in the secular sciences. I worked in the mental health field and was going to college to that end. I don't believe that you can work in that field and believe our wills are not bound in some way by our natures (even if as a product of our environment). I found out that geneticists believe much the same (but through genetics). In fact, the only people that seem to believe in libertarian free will (that we can will that which is beyond our nature to will) is a minority engaged in philosophy and quite a few in religion.

 

[Deacon]

Odd that you mention quite a few liberationists are found among those in religion.
Libertarianism is at odds with determinism. I'd be willing to bet most of us on the BBoard are determinists.

Rob

 

[JonC]

Odd that you mention quite a few liberationists are found among those in religion.
Libertarianism is at odds with determinism. I'd be willing to bet most of us on the BBoard are determinists.

Rob

I hope you are right.

What I mean is that religion is often the one place where people who would normally recognize that inherent features within our character, our nature....what makes us who we are.... has an influence on our wills, on what we desire, on how we view things are willing to toss this blindly aside and declare that they are indeed free from any of these influences. Not only that, but they are free from their own natures in such a way that they can of themselves and apart from the influence of Another, choose God. Only in religion and philosophy will anyone say that and half way get away with it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Well If I don't have a free will then your not debating me at all, Everything I say to you is authored directly by God. God says your wrong.

I could say hey well I am never free to express myself I have no free will, all things are doctored, distorted, by something else.

I am also without sin, never having choice and behavior of perfect submission to the forces who do have choice.


The mistake done here is you can only accept a God who is limited to being a control freak to get what he wants. In terms of power that is the most laughable. You can probably accept God putting out a fire with great flood of water, but the idea that God can put out a fire with a gasoline covered toothpick is inconceivable to you.

IMPOSSIBLE is something God eats for breakfast. Including the education of free will and creating beings of free will.

Flat out the God who can't create beings of free will is dumber then the one who can. He can only win a game of checkers by moving the pieces of his opponents.


You should consider Jesus Christ is our exemplar and the standard of all complete human faculties , he wasn't a mindless zombie robot.

There is nothing Jesus did you can't do yourself.

If my "nature" limits my free will, Then we have to say Jesus Christ has no free will either. Else he was never true human, the price remains to be paid and God has been defeated.



Its all excuses, excuses, excuses, The reason you sin is it is YOUR FAULT. Saying God did not provide for a way for me not to sin is a false accusation against God. And we heard it since genesis 3:
When Adam tried to pass the buck for his disobedience on Eve and eve on the serpent

 

[MB]

I hope you are right.

What I mean is that religion is often the one place where people who would normally recognize that inherent features within our character, our nature....what makes us who we are.... has an influence on our wills, on what we desire, on how we view things are willing to toss this blindly aside and declare that they are indeed free from any of these influences. Not only that, but they are free from their own natures in such a way that they can of themselves and apart from the influence of Another, choose God. Only in religion and philosophy will anyone say that and half way get away with it.

This is like saying man is incapable of change apart from God. Therefore man is not responsible for his own actions. If a man commits murder it's because God made him a murderer. Or it's the devil's fault. It's so easy to say man can't do right that way on judgement day he can say to God well you made me this way. Making God responsible for the sin. Not to mention your view seems to me to be fatalism. Because you have lock man into it, in your thinking. Man does have a choice it's all through scripture how you missed it is beyond me. When Paul said.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul was speaking of the way a man thinks. To prove this,when a christian sins he is thinking naturally or carnally. He was speaking to babes in Christ because they were thinking carnally and needed to change their thinking so they could learn and grow. You'd know this if you would have read on into Chapter three.
You have taken this verse above and applied it to your own way of thinking applying it to the lost instead of the babes in Christ..
MB

 

[JonC]

This is like saying man is incapable of change apart from God. Therefore man is not responsible for his own actions. If a man commits murder it's because God made him a murderer. Or it's the devil's fault. It's so easy to say man can't do right that way on judgement day he can say to God well you made me this way. Making God responsible for the sin. Not to mention your view seems to me to be fatalism. Because you have lock man into it, in your thinking. Man does have a choice it's all through scripture how you missed it is beyond me. When Paul said.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul was speaking of the way a man thinks. To prove this,when a christian sins he is thinking naturally or carnally. He was speaking to babes in Christ because they were thinking carnally and needed to change their thinking so they could learn and grow. You'd know this if you would have read on into Chapter three.
You have taken this verse above and applied it to your own way of thinking applying it to the lost instead of the babes in Christ..
MB

No, it isn't. It is like saying that we freely choose but that our choices are always in accord with our nature.

 

[JonShaff]

No, it isn't. It is like saying that we freely choose but that our choices are always in accord with our nature.

For the record, I'm in agreement. But please qualify/define Nature. More specifically, a lost man's nature. Thanks in advance!