Free Will

[robycop3]

This is all meaningless unless you can prove from scripture you are in fact elect. There is not even one Gentile in scripture referred to as elect.
MB

Well, we see several Greek women in Scripture who became Christians - Dorcas, Lydia, Phoebe, Triphena & Tryphosa, among them, along with several Romans such as the unnamed centurion who believed in Jesus & asked Him to heal his servant, Aquila & Priscilla, Cornelius & family, & Paul's jailer,

But you're right that Scripture doesn't call any of them "elect". But there'll be some here who'll say they were "predestinated".

 

[robycop3]

Is the New Covenant only for Israel?
Who is Israel? Is it a nation based upon genetic lineage or is it the people of the promise?

Both.

There is PHYSICAL Israel & SPIRITUAL Israel.

While anyone can become a SPIRITUAL Israeli, one must be born of Israelis to be a PHYSICAL Israeli.

 

[Particular]

Both.

There is PHYSICAL Israel & SPIRITUAL Israel.

While anyone can become a SPIRITUAL Israeli, one must be born of Israelis to be a PHYSICAL Israeli.

Correct
However, the new covenant is only for spiritual Israel, of which a physical Israelite can also be.
So, when Ezekiel is expressing the new covenant (as Jeremiah also expressed it), Ezekiel is speaking to spiritual Israel.

 

[agedman]

The KJV calls them elect.

​

These were not Identified as Gentiles or Jews.



You and all the Calvinist who believe they are replacing Israel are deceived This claim is arrogance on the part of Calvinist. You even boast about it but Paul said;
Rom_11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Still you have not shown the election of just one Gentile. Can you prove your election? If not then why do you believe your own imagination.
MB

This thread is about free will.

I chased after your brief rabbit trail in hope that the humble approach might entice you to learn.

I posted my position last days to you some time ago when you posted similar claims on another thread. You were wrong then and now.

You are mixing soteriology with eschatology. Two different subjects.

If you would like to address my views on the last days then start another thread.

If you want to attack Calvinistic thinking go to the other forum.

If you want to gain insight into how “freedom of the will” for a believer as either shackled in submission to Christ or slaved bound to the flesh, then pursue this thread.

If you would like to consider that the non-believer is a slave to the flesh and to the Devil, then this is the thread.

If you want to really learn, I suggest you ask questions rather then pursuing declarative sentences that have no foundation nor purpose other than being divisive.

 

[robycop3]

Correct
However, the new covenant is only for spiritual Israel, of which a physical Israelite can also be.
So, when Ezekiel is expressing the new covenant (as Jeremiah also expressed it), Ezekiel is speaking to spiritual Israel.

but God told Zeke the dry bones represented the WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. In that time, that meant only PHYSICAL Israel.

 

[Particular]

but God told Zeke the dry bones represented the WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. In that time, that meant only PHYSICAL Israel.

It represents the Israel of the promise. Not all Israel is Israel.

God will establish the throne of his Kingdom in Jerusalem. We shall dwell with him.

Jews misunderstood what God was saying. Many still think God is exclusively theirs and that they have a special place in God's kingdom purely by their physical lineage. They are mistaken.

Ezekiel 37:1-14 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord and set me down in the middle of the valley; it was full of bones. And he led me around among them, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley, and behold, they were very dry. And he said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord God, you know.” Then he said to me, “Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the Lord.” So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I prophesied, there was a sound, and behold, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And I looked, and behold, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them. But there was no breath in them. Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the Lord God: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live.” So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army. Then he said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are indeed cut off.’ Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the Lord; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the Lord.”

 

[Iconoclast]

There is no #17, but I'm considering adding a #7.

#7. Obfuscate the issue by asking unrelated questions to the subject being debated.

Free Will

No...that is from my number list of synergist excuses on how to avoid the texts

 

[MB]

Well, we see several Greek women in Scripture who became Christians - Dorcas, Lydia, Phoebe, Triphena & Tryphosa, among them, along with several Romans such as the unnamed centurion who believed in Jesus & asked Him to heal his servant, Aquila & Priscilla, Cornelius & family, & Paul's jailer,

But you're right that Scripture doesn't call any of them "elect". But there'll be some here who'll say they were "predestinated".

It seems Calvinist use;
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Then they argue this applies to them and not just the disciples. Although Jesus is speaking to the disciples
I have no doubt Gentiles can be and are saved. I'm one of them thank God.
Predestination. I can say that God does predesignate.It's in scripture that we are to become His likeness. Since I don't consider myself to be like Jesus yet, I do believe we will be in heaven. Some have claimed to be predestined to Salvation, but that doesn't seem to be in my KJV
MB.

 

[InTheLight]

No...that is from my number list of synergist excuses on how to avoid the texts

OK....but every time I give text, the Calvinist responses are:

#1. THE WORD IN THAT VERSE ACTUALLY MEANS SOMETHING ELSE.
#2. THAT VERSE IS TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.
#3. THAT VERSE WAS NOT WRITTEN TO THE PEOPLE YOU ARE CLAIMING.

so, why should I bother?

 

[percho]

I'm not going to do that. I'm simply going to emphasize who the audience is, and challenge you to show us why this passage applies to Gentile sinners of the 21st century.

Ezekiel 36:1-38 “And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God: Because the enemy said of you, ‘Aha!’ and, ‘The ancient heights have become our possession,’ therefore prophesy, and say, Thus says the Lord God: Precisely because they made you desolate and crushed you from all sides, so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations, and you became the talk and evil gossip of the people, therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord God: Thus says the Lord God to the mountains and the hills, the ravines and the valleys, the desolate wastes and the deserted cities, which have become a prey and derision to the rest of the nations all around, therefore thus says the Lord God: Surely I have spoken in my hot jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave my land to themselves as a possession with wholehearted joy and utter contempt, that they might make its pasturelands a prey. Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I have spoken in my jealous wrath, because you have suffered the reproach of the nations. Therefore thus says the Lord God: I swear that the nations that are all around you shall themselves suffer reproach. “But you, O mountains of Israel, shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to my people Israel, for they will soon come home. For behold, I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. And I will multiply people on you, the whole house of Israel, all of it. The cities shall be inhabited and the waste places rebuilt. And I will multiply on you man and beast, and they shall multiply and be fruitful. And I will cause you to be inhabited as in your former times, and will do more good to you than ever before. Then you will know that I am the Lord. I will let people walk on you, even my people Israel. And they shall possess you, and you shall be their inheritance, and you shall no longer bereave them of children. Thus says the Lord God: Because they say to you, ‘You devour people, and you bereave your nation of children,’ therefore you shall no longer devour people and no longer bereave your nation of children, declares the Lord God. And I will not let you hear anymore the reproach of the nations, and you shall no longer bear the disgrace of the peoples and no longer cause your nation to stumble, declares the Lord God.” The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, when the house of Israel lived in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds. Their ways before me were like the uncleanness of a woman in her menstrual impurity. So I poured out my wrath upon them for the blood that they had shed in the land, for the idols with which they had defiled it. I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. In accordance with their ways and their deeds I judged them. But when they came to the nations, wherever they came, they profaned my holy name, in that people said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord, and yet they had to go out of his land.’ But I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they came. “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel. “Thus says the Lord God: On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt. And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, instead of being the desolation that it was in the sight of all who passed by. And they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden, and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ Then the nations that are left all around you shall know that I am the Lord; I have rebuilt the ruined places and replanted that which was desolate. I am the Lord; I have spoken, and I will do it. “Thus says the Lord God: This also I will let the house of Israel ask me to do for them: to increase their people like a flock. Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”

I liked for Hosea 8:8 Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

 

[percho]

I have asked before:

Are the firstfruits of Rev 14:3,4 the same firstfruits of James 1:1,18?

 

[MB]

This thread is about free will.

I chased after your brief rabbit trail in hope that the humble approach might entice you to learn.

I posted my position last days to you some time ago when you posted similar claims on another thread. You were wrong then and now.

You are mixing soteriology with eschatology. Two different subjects.

If you would like to address my views on the last days then start another thread.

If you want to attack Calvinistic thinking go to the other forum.

If you want to gain insight into how “freedom of the will” for a believer as either shackled in submission to Christ or slaved bound to the flesh, then pursue this thread.

If you would like to consider that the non-believer is a slave to the flesh and to the Devil, then this is the thread.

If you want to really learn, I suggest you ask questions rather then pursuing declarative sentences that have no foundation nor purpose other than being divisive.

Your the one to bring up these subjects. I just answered them . The answers seem offensive to you no doubt. I can't help that either. I can only reply what I know in answering your questions.
Some slaves escape there captivity by there own free will..You wish to portray slaves as being unable to escape,but slaves to sin have a way of escape it's believing in Christ and they can do this because they are invited too by Christ Him Self.
MB

 

[agedman]

Correct
However, the new covenant is only for spiritual Israel, of which a physical Israelite can also be.
So, when Ezekiel is expressing the new covenant (as Jeremiah also expressed it), Ezekiel is speaking to spiritual Israel.

This really isn't the thread for that discussion, but I honestly cannot find a warrant in Scripture at this point to hold to such as the view of Ezekiel at the time of prophecy, nor how the national Israel of Christ's first advent took the passage, nor how the early Church took the passage.

So, perhaps another thread would be good specifically on that passage to explore all that may be ferreted out.

Why not start one, and let's all see where it may take its journey?

 

[Dave G]

I copied the exact same hermeneutic method used by Sovereign Grace to explain why Ezekiel 36 is written to everyone, not just the Israelites, and either you guys didn't see it (didn't click on the link) or you are ignoring it. Or maybe it flew right over your head.

Here it is again, if you care to look this time:
Where Is Free Will?

Frankly, I feel that I don't need to look at it again.

Not only are he and I in much the same agreement, I have the Scriptures to read for myself and I understand them pretty much the same way he does.
When two people that are 800 miles apart, have never met face to face and have never talked on the phone, can break down the Scriptures the same way...
I figure that I don't really have to look at the other's threads again in order to know what he is going to say about an issue.

Yes, we have some minor differences about other things the Bible teaches, but regarding how and why God saves someone, we are in agreement.

I also see several of my posts in that thread, so I think that you already know my answers on Ezekiel 11:19 and Ezekiel 36:26.

Why is it that Calvinists can have an interpretation method go both ways for them? Because they need to be flexible to make their theology fit into scripture.

I'm not a "Calvinist" and never have been.

I'm a Bible believing, blood-bought child of the living God who loves His word and simply pioints out what it says.
If you want to classify me as a "Calvinist", that is between you and the Lord.
But it's not true, as I don't follow John Calvin.

That said, those who believe as I do don't have an "interpretation method" that goes both ways.
If I had to come up with an explanation that would make sense, I'd say that we understand the Scriptures in a way that seems very contradictory to you.
Whatever God's word says, in most cases, is what we believe...
At face value.

In other areas, there is context to consider that does not make sense, "logically".

Basically put, you'd have to come to see and understand the Scriptures in the exact same way in order to know why we teach what we do.
"Flexibility" has absolutely nothing to do with it...
One either "gets it", or one does not.

Now,
Some "Calvinists" think that the Bible can be taught systematically.
I don't, and never have.

The reason I don't, is because some of them and I are on opposite sides of an issue...
The Holy Spirit as the individual's Teacher ( 1 John 2:20-27 ), not men.

Yes, I believe that "soteriology" can be taught systematically, as well as other topics...but to me, that doesn't address the "opposing" verses and passages fully.
That's where God's Spirit comes in.

Only someone who has the Spirit can ever fully understand God's word...
And yes, it can be done, without "bible colleges".
God's people have been doing it for centuries.

I'm sorry, ITL...that's the best that I can do.

Do humans have the ability to believe in Jesus for their eternal salvation by listening to and considering the gospel?

A simple yes or no would suffice.

I say YES.

I say no.

Why?

Because it's not as "cut and dried" as you seem to want it.
God's word is very detailed, and simply "hitting the high spots", if that is what you are doing, doesn't do it justice.

Not everyone believes the Gospel who is exposed to it...and simply consigning it all to "free will" doesn't even begin to address what God's word actually says about how and why people believe and don't believe it.

 

[Iconoclast]

OK....but every time I give text, the Calvinist responses are:

#1. THE WORD IN THAT VERSE ACTUALLY MEANS SOMETHING ELSE.
#2. THAT VERSE IS TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.
#3. THAT VERSE WAS NOT WRITTEN TO THE PEOPLE YOU ARE CLAIMING.

so, why should I bother?

1]What if the word does mean something else? Should they not tell you?

2] What if it is out of context? This is very often true on message boards.

3] It might also be that it was written only to the elect sheep.

if you believe it is wrong, say why. Then people will offer back to you.

 

[Dave G]

OK....but every time I give text, the Calvinist responses are:

#1. THE WORD IN THAT VERSE ACTUALLY MEANS SOMETHING ELSE.
#2. THAT VERSE IS TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.
#3. THAT VERSE WAS NOT WRITTEN TO THE PEOPLE YOU ARE CLAIMING.

so, why should I bother?

You keep asking questions, and it seems that you don't like the answers.

As I see it, the Scriptures themselves should be enough to do the job...
They were enough for me.
But, because you keep asking the questions, something inside me wants to try and explain it to you, in-depth, in the hope that you will understand it.

Seeing the context and the people the Scriptures are written to, is something that took time to develop for me.
I figure that if I keep urging you to study and look at them deeply, you will eventually see what I did.

After over a year on this forum, I now see that nothing I can do will ever make a difference.
But, I'm still hoping that something will.

All I can do is encourage you to keep up your studies, sir.
The more I did, the more things were cleared up for me.


May God bless you.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Please start a new thread.

I'm still waiting for people to chime in on whether or not a person can become a believer by listening and considering the gospel. That question is more on topic to the OP. So far, only one person has responded.

I would say no. How could my cerebral palsy sister with a burnt out brain stem had listened to and considered the gospel? And I have stated that position countless times on BB.

 

[Particular]

You keep asking questions, and it seems that you don't like the answers.

As I see it, the Scriptures themselves should be enough to do the job...
They were enough for me.
But, because you keep asking the questions, something inside me wants to try and explain it to you, in-depth, in the hope that you will understand it.

Seeing the context and the people the Scriptures are written to, is something that took time to develop for me.
I figure that if I keep urging you to study and look at them deeply, you will eventually see what I did.

After over a year on this forum, I now see that nothing I can do will ever make a difference.
But, I'm still hoping that something will.

All I can do is encourage you to keep up your studies, sir.
The more I did, the more things were cleared up for me.


May God bless you.

I wholeheartedly agree with you Dave. It took about 25 years in my case, but once I began reading without looking for a prop to my presupposition, the scripture became clear. I knew I had been wrong all those years. I give all credit to God. He knew what was coming in my life and that I needed to have a fully Sovereign and Supreme God when He brought my path through the deep, deep valley.

 

[Reformed]

if you believe it is wrong, say why.

Bingo! Just throwing out pejoratives against Calvinists accomplishes nothing except to give the impression that you have no answer. The same thing goes for Calvinists who use pejoratives against Arminians. Cannot both sides agree that the final arbiter on all matters of faith and practice is scripture? When I read terms like "Calvinist nonsense" I know that individual has no argument. In fact, when they are called out on it they double down on their obfuscation. That is proof that they cannot respond with any substance.

 

[agedman]

Bingo! Just throwing out pejoratives against Calvinists accomplishes nothing except to give the impression that you have no answer. The same thing goes for Calvinists who use pejoratives against Arminians. Cannot both sides agree that the final arbiter on all matters of faith and practice is scripture? When I read terms like "Calvinist nonsense" I know that individual has no argument. In fact, when they are called out on it they double down on their obfuscation. That is proof that they cannot respond with any substance.

Though I must admit, the flesh finds it so easy to drive me to distraction and participation.

Woe is me. Who shall deliver me from being accountable for all that I post that is not of Him!