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Free Will

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Reformed

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Though I must admit, the flesh finds it so easy to drive me to distraction and participation.

Woe is me. Who shall deliver me from being accountable for all that I post that is not of Him!

Brother, I feel the same way. The fact that my personality is naturally abrasive is proof that there is abiding sin in my life. I have to purpose not to play in the mud when it comes to message board participation. Those times that I have is shame on me, not my interlocutor.
 

MB

Well-Known Member
As it applies to freedom of the will, there is no escape the captivity of the person's will outside of the direct intervention of the work of Christ. That believer's ownership is transferred from death to life and that the believer is presented in the Scriptures as once a slave to the flesh and the devil, and now are to be submissive to the God of Creation.

You must not stray the presentation of the Scriptures in this matter. It is not a matter of some soteriological view, for all views that are of any value hold to that basic thinking.

Believing in Christ is not a matter of personal decision made independently from the work of the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the Word.

The only group who comes close to not agreement on this is the full pelagic thinking.

"Pelagius taught that man has an unimpaired moral ability to choose that which is spiritually good and possesses the free will, ability, and capacity to do that which is spiritually good. This resulted in a gospel of salvation based on human works. Man could choose to follow the precepts of God and then follow those precepts because he had the power within himself to do so." (https://www.theopedia.com/pelagianism)
You need to know that teaching of Pelagius was a cause for removal from the BB in the past. So, if your going to promote such, you might run into a problem with the moderators.

It is also worthy to note that virtually all theologians (no matter their soteriology view) have condemned the view as heretical.

A bit of history for your consideration:

Now, there are groups that embrace some prevenient grace (preceding grace) thinking. The Scriptures do not teach such, but it was developed by the Wesley group in order to present a personal involvement in salvation. Again, it is not a teaching from Scripture. They admitted as much. This group admits that without the special grace the will is not free to make any decision.

There are many who would have the human will as able to listen to God's presentation and respond to the appeal. But again, there is no Scripture supporting such a presentation. Until the mid 1800's such a presentation was not the popular view, but a lawyer named Finney designed such in order to validate emotional appeals in his meetings. Many later evangelists followed that design. Some became almost pelagic in their thinking.

It must be stated clearly that the Scriptures present that there is no true freedom of the human will in which the human may without the authority of God's intervention come to Christ.

Here are two passages that will illustrate the position of Scriptures in the matter of "free will."

Ephesians 2
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The Lord Jesus said in John 8:
34Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”​


Both of these passages emphasis that it is the authority of God that makes the difference and not some human attribute that someone thinks that they have.
You would not believe how much you infuriate me with your threat of conformity. You go tell the moderators to kick me out of BB because of your accusation of me being a Pelegan. is slander.
MB
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
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You would not believe how much you infuriate me with your threat of conformity. You go tell the moderators to kick me out of BB because of your accusation of me being a Pelegan. is slander.
MB
I made no such accusation!

Far from it.

Rather, assuming your exuberant personality on display in the threads, I offered you the most gentle of cautions about discussion of the topic in which you seem to be drifting toward discussing. I have no desire to see you leave the BB.

Rather, I truly long for your growth and maturity. I have seen evidence of it occurring, and desire more gain. You leaving would not benefit, you or us.

Now, let me encourage you to read from multiple sources about the subject concerning this thread. I ask that, not to change your thinking, rather, so you will know a bit of the historical influences upon the subject and some of the pitfalls of each.

Paul did not leave the former advanced teaching behind when he became a believer which is why he was so very effective in his witness. He knew the subject matter form many viewpoints, and was able to point out the strengths as well as the weaknesses.

Theopedia is a good starting source that gives balanced briefs on a great number of topics.
 

MartyF

Well-Known Member
Natural men make choices every day. All agree on that Marty. My point of contention is God has not said anywhere that it exists. Scripture does say we have a will, a self will...we agree.
Because of the fall into sin and death, whatever Adam's will was pre-fall....it no longer is.

I will definitely agree that both Adam and Eve were changed after they ate the forbidden fruit. I also agree that that change affected their offspring as shown in:

Genesis 6:5 NLT
[5] The LORD observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil.

But I am thinking that using the term “will” is too problematic and has too much baggage from western thought.

I am not against the idea that God at times, decides to influence his creation in many ways, at other times forces people to do things physically, and rarely but at times even controls or influences the minds of humans.

However, I don’t see the Biblical basis of God controlling every “finger twitch” and every thought of every human being. Not only that but it is counter to the reason why he made us:

Genesis 1:26 NLT
[26] Then God said, "Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground."

If he created us to rule, why would he micromanage every action and though we had? Kinda defeats the purpose.
 
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