Free will

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gekko: Election? what the dill is that?

where God predestinated who would be christian and who would not? is that was election is?
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if that's what it is - its heresy according to scripture. God desired for all to be saved - that's your predestination right there.

then theres the free-choice - and unfortunately - many decided not to go according to God's predestination.

HP: That is indeed interesting. If election is the predestination of the elect, it is heresy? HMMMMM. Would one supporting such a notion be a heretic?

Define predestination for us as you see it. Are you suggesting that predestination is nothing more than a desire of God for the salvation of all?

 

[Burrito Breath]

Did anyone die too soon?

I saw dis questiones! What be da answer amundo?

"Question: Do some/all Arminians believe that people now in hell might not be there if they had only lived longer? I'm pretty "reformed" so I don't think so but possibly others do?"

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Burrito breath: "Question: Do some/all Arminians believe that people now in hell might not be there if they had only lived longer? I'm pretty "reformed" so I don't think so but possibly others do?"

HP: I have lived around, conversed, worshiped, and read much concerning Arminian theology and have never heard any such thing stated or implied.

“What if” arguments go something like this. If a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his rear ever time he jumps!

 

[Briguy]

Let's first clear up what predestination is using the easiest to understand verses. Read carefully below. Romans 8 (NASB)
27and (BD)He who searches the hearts knows what (BE)the mind of the Spirit is, because He (BF)intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that [c]God causes (BG)all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are (BH)called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He (BI)foreknew, He also (BJ)predestined to become (BK)conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the (BL)firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He (BM)predestined, He also (BN)called; and these whom He called, He also (BO)justified; and these whom He justified, He also (BP)glorified. 31(BQ)What then shall we say to these things? (BR)If God is for us, who is against us?

Biblical predestination is to be glorified, that is made like Jesus. The truely saved person is guarenteed to be glorified the way Christ is Glorified. Remember when Jesus rose from the dead he had a glorified body? we will be glorified in that way. We don't earn that it, it is not a process it is a foregone conclusion for the believer. It ties into election in that the "elect" as the Bible calls the believers, not me, are predistined to be glorified. I believe Jim said on page one that free will opreates within God's sovernity. What ever level of free will there is it is within God's rule. We know that God directs our steps yet He lets us decide whether we follow His direction or not. That would be free will in that sense. In terms of salvation, free will operates in a way we can't understand. God already knows who His elect are. It is His call based on the criteria that He set. When you know everything to begin with you know who would come to you. He knows His elect and he makes the election sure. God does not judge by works, He judges by faith and he then declares the person righteous. He decides though there is a distinction of faith and belief in each believer. Was God surprized when He chose Paul that Paul did what he said and wrote a third of the NT? No, God knew what Paul would do. Did Paul have free will?? does that even matter since we know what Paul did? We are not puppets and i am sorry HP thought I was saying we are. We can sin and thersfore we are not puppets as sinning would be outside of what God would ahev us do if He was controlling things like a puppeteer. Free will exists as God has given it. God knows His elect from the foundation of the world. If you are one of His elect go into the world and make your election sure, that is work out the salvation you have been given as one of god's chosen people.

Clear as mud right?

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Burrito Breath]

HP, what answer

HP; serioso; does some people beliefs that peeples not go to hell if tehy lived awhile longers?

 

[gekko]

Define predestination for us as you see it. Are you suggesting that predestination is nothing more than a desire of God for the salvation of all?

its not how I see it - it's how scripture states it. (dont have the scripture as of right now - im in class)

and its from a Jewish perspective in viewing the scriptures (which i believe should be the way we look at scripture is: what is the jewish perspective on this?)

that God predestinated everyone to be saved (if he didn't - why create adam?)

unfortunately - many decided not to be saved. before God created this earth - and the people on it - He desired for all to be saved (predestination) - but of course God had to provide free-choice - so that we wouldn't be "robots" - eventually many decided against it all.

what many see in this - and they have problems with this is the following statement - "Is God not able to carry out His plan His way?"

people who ask that - completely forget that God gave us a choice - just as He gave Adam and Eve a choice. rather it was a command not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. still - people do not realize that we do have a choice to make - life or death.

predestination is a rather odd term for me - imho i'd call it "God's desire for all to be saved" - which is basically what predestination is.

I see many times that people say predestination is that God predestinated who would be elect and who would not be elect. what is elect? elect is just another term for "saint" - saints aren't old dead guys with naked babies floating around them.

those who are Gods - are of God - and are saints - therefore elect.
God's desire was for all to be saved - for all to be for Him - for all to be "elect"

God has given us oracles to speak to the people with. scripture says that the oracles (plural) are the ten commandments. the Jews have an advantage - because they were first given these oracles. and so like the book of Zachariah says - there will be gentiles hanging onto the skirts of jews to learn from the jews - because the Hebrew nation is the Lords - the Lord chose them.

i try to keep in touch with a messianic jewish/gentile church in vancouver, BC. i used to go there - but now i live three hours away - and WOW - does hearing it from a jewish perspective - its amazing - it opens the scriptures up so much more - because the scriptures were written - and the Hebrew nation is all over it.
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does that make sense? have I answered your question?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP: Who is addressing this sense of freedom? The issue of free will we are trying to address is not concerned directly with whether or not a certain action is in compliance with certain laws, or whether or not it violates the rights of others. Free will speaks directly to the intents of the heart, and whether or not man is the cause of those intents. Is man the author of the moral intents of his heart and subsequent actions, or is man and the intents of his heart the mere product of coercion? Are we creators of our intents, or are we mere puppets of necessitated force? Has man, that has reached the age of accountability, been granted abilities by God of contrary choice in the area of morals, the ability to do something other than what he does under the very same set of circumstances, or are we simply the product of necessitated fate?

What is it that makes punishments or rewards just for moral intents? Are punishments and rewards proof of moral accountability? Is it just to punish or praise one that could not have done anything other than what he does under the very same set of circumstances? These are some of the questions we need to address.

Here's Adam as an example - re 'age', 'condition' - whatever: sinless and unfallen: himself the 'coercer' of his choices ... Result?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting Gekko,

"people who ask that - completely forget that God gave us a choice - just as He gave Adam and Eve a choice."

Adam again - he had to be saved to live - a choice would be of no help; or a choice makes grace and God superfluous.

What about yourself ... don't you sin; are you not a sinner? If not, then Christ is of no worth for you.

 

[Brother Bob]

If a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his rear ever time he jumps!

What if it was a "dumb" frog? :laugh:

Maybe you could tell me why a chicken walks across the road instead of flying? :laugh:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

God first - from pure sovereign grace and of HIS, free will - gave to whomever HE, willed - the elect - a new heart - regeneration, and thus, the freedom and the desire or intent or will, to choose for Him who had first and from eternity had chosen him/them. This never comes from the unregenerate, 'old', 'natural', man, but from Christ to His own only.

Here's the gaurantee you are Christ's - do you find in yourself a fight against the sure knowledge of your being the posession of your Saviour? It is your only sure indication you are. Else you would not have worried, except like the ungodly, from fear (of eternal punishment).

Does the love of God constrain you? Then it - being constrained - shows you have in your heart this conflict between the old man and the new - which is God's way of comforting and giving rest to those His chosen own.

 

[BobRyan]

. I neither have the time to rewrite texts, nor would the Baptistboard appreciate my consuming page after page of repetition. Any good text will rightly explain the various aspects of theology.

Finally - a believable statement from Jim.

He genuinely has no time to quote the Word of God.

He also admits that God's Word speaks for itself.

He appears to be right on both points!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

If man were god then man would have to deny free will to mankind SO THAT he could accurately PREDICT what all souls will do in the future.

"IF" man WERE god that is!!

But since it is GOD that is God and NOT man - GOD says "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears My voice AND THEN OPENS the door I WILL THEN come in"

No question - God has sovereignly CHOSEN the system of free will.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP: I have lived around, conversed, worshiped, and read much concerning Arminian theology and have never heard any such thing stated or implied.

“What if” arguments go something like this. If a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his rear ever time he jumps!

O yes, Arminian theology does imply it! Almost no sermon without the 'coercing' refrain: Make your choice for Christ tonight, or it may be too late forever."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

My last post actually goes with this remark: "Burrito breath: "Question: Do some/all Arminians believe that people now in hell might not be there if they had only lived longer? I'm pretty "reformed" so I don't think so but possibly others do?"

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If man were god then man would have to deny free will to mankind SO THAT he could accurately PREDICT what all souls will do in the future.

"IF" man WERE god that is!!

But since it is GOD that is God and NOT man - GOD says "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears My voice AND THEN OPENS the door I WILL THEN come in"

No question - God has sovereignly CHOSEN the system of free will.

In Christ,

Bob

One eyed Bob again, Have you not read, "I, stand at the door and I, knock"? Like Jesus, who called the DEAD Lazarus from the grave. Could he choose to stay in there or to come forward? So little can anyone open that door were it not JESUS who knocked; if not JESUS had given him an ear to hear HIM, knock. Now you were dead in your sins ...

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Were it not JESUS, who IS, the door!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I already know what your answer to this one is going to be.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Like before, "Jesus entering Jesus"!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting Gekko, "predestination is a rather odd term for me - imho i'd call it "God's desire for all to be saved" - which is basically what predestination is."

God desires for all HIS, to be saved, meaning He wills they be saved - which is basically what predestination is. But God just so and just so sovereignly and just so righteously, desires the ungodly and reprobate not to be saved, but to be rewarded righteously, their eternal earnings: hell.

 

[Brother Bob]

Here's the gaurantee you are Christ's - do you find in yourself a fight against the sure knowledge of your being the posession of your Saviour? It is your only sure indication you are. Else you would not have worried, except like the ungodly, from fear (of eternal punishment).

Are you saying that if you worry if you are really saved then that is a sign that you are saved? Well, I guess that takes care of that doubt for if you ever doubt then you are for sure saved!!!!

desires the ungodly and reprobate not to be saved, but to be rewarded righteously, their eternal earnings: hell.

Sure don't jive with the following Scriptures now does it?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Man, this is a strong statement:
desires the ungodly and reprobate not to be saved, but to be rewarded righteously, their eternal earnings: hell.