Unfortunately at this point in time where you friends or foes have joined in, I must go ... to work. Have a nice day!
			
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GE: The whole Scriptures is written for whose instruction and good?
Everyone reading your wisdom here will know what to decide for himself.
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: This verse does not speak directly to any individual as it is written, so it would be in error to apply it to an individual when in fact it is not referring to one.
BD17: HP What are nations? Nothing but a group of INDIVIDUALS. You cannot have a nation without INDIVIDUALS.
Let me take a shot at it. Being that God is outside of time and everlasting to everlasting, He saw Esau sell his birthright before Esau was ever born. He also saw Jacob as a believer before he was ever born so therefore God had already seen these things and because Esau would sell his birthright God said Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated.Quoting Heavenly Pilgrim, "HP: The word children in this verse refers to ‘nations’ in that God chose certain nations to be granted certain privileges and benefits that others would not have, and this benefit had nothing directly to do with them doing anything good or evil, due to the fact that He chose to confer these blessings upon them before their existence."
Apply this verse to yourself - does it apply or not? It applied to me and still applies to me after a life-time of being God's child.
Brother Bob: Let me take a shot at it. Being that God is outside of time and everlasting to everlasting, He saw Esau sell his birthright before Esau was ever born. He also saw Jacob as a believer before he was ever born so therefore God had already seen these things and because Esau would sell his birthright God said Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated.
The same is true for you and me. God sees who WILL believe before we are ever born or even before the foundation of the world. He gave us the choice and knows beforehand what we will do, choose good or choose evil.
This is so simple to understand, I don't know how calvinists can muck it up so.What God is under obligation to do, is to provide those He holds eternally accountable with the requisite abilities to obey, and understanding of what is required of the them, if in fact He is going to punish or reward them for obedience or disobedience.
BD17: HP You are so incorrect about Romans it is actually laughable.
You criticize HP for not knowing the Scripture...and then make this outlandish statement. I didn't realize salvation was offered based on nationality. People were saved in the OT the same as today, not by their nationality. Replacement theology is heresy.That his nation shall be the chosen nation, equatable to salvation in the OT.
webdog said:You criticize HP for not knowing the Scripture...and then make this outlandish statement. I didn't realize salvation was offered based on nationality. People were saved in the OT the same as today, not by their nationality. Replacement theology is heresy.
Nation as a whole? No.BD17 said:Was the nation of Esau saved were they entitled to the promise?
webdog said:Nation as a whole? No.
Let's flip the coin. Were ALL jews saved for the simple fact they were jews?