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Free will
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
BD17 said:
I'm sorry, but no one is going to hell because they sin. They are going to hell because they don't believe in Christ -- see John 3:16-18 as well as the rest of the Bible. The fact is that there are a great many who are not believers who do NOT choose to do sinful things, which is what your claim was. Being a non-believer does not condemn one to choose to do only sinful things. Nor can you say that because they are non-believers they therefore are only doing sinful things no matter what they do. Jesus Himself contradicted that:
Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 7:9-12
According to Jesus, then, evil people know how to do good things. Jesus did not say they were sinning by doing what they did, but that they were doing good things. Now, are you going to say that when Jesus says something someone does is good it is nevertheless a sin?
That would be an interestng point for you to defend....
Brother Bob
New Member
Oh yes, we have to always revert back to worshipping God in the Flesh and not Spirit. I thank God He gave me His Spirit to lead me, for as many as are lead by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
BD17: Yada, Yada, Yada, once again YOU deny it because YOU do not agree with it, typical Armeniast response, and still fails to see the illogiacal conclusions to their own arguments, such as Christ died for noone and nothing because it is quite possible that NNE EVER WOULD CHOOSE CHRIST, so his blood is shed in vain.
HP: I personally believe that God is Omniscient. Being as such nothing He does is without merit, nor does He lack for clear insight as to the future and what the response might be as a result of His offer of salvation. Just the same, none of this forces or coerces the salvation of any, for God simply foreknows the choices that men will indeed make. The foreknowledge of God does not equate to the elimination of freedom of man’s will, nor does it demand the elimination of it. God’s foreknowledge can and does know matters of perfect choice as well as those of necessity. His ways are higher than our ways, and His foreknowledge far surpasses the foreknowledge we are limited to, i.e. matters of necessity alone.
J.D. said:
That is a giant red herring! People can do good no matter if they are believers or unbelievers. However doing good does not make you a born again child of God, and that is the point in terms of salvation.
Quit trying to change the meaning of what I said.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Sorry Helen but I must take exception to this notion. It has been a stronhold of Calvinistic thought to make the rejection of Christ the damning sin. That is in error. “Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.”
Rejection of the cure will indeed seal ones fate but it is not the cause of the malady. Willful rebellion to a known commandment of God is the source of ones condemnation. IF one hears and rejects the message of the Savior, that then would be sin as well, but the fact remains, the condition of sin they find themselves in and in need of a Saviour is directly tied to will disobedience to a known commandment of God prior to and antecedent to any rejection of the salvation message.
The heathen, not having heard the gospel, will still be judged according to their conscience, and will be found to be proper recipients of their doom in spite of never hearing the gospel message.
The rejection of the cure is not the damning sin.
I'll stick with what the Bible says, regardless of any theological group's point of view. The Bible says that those who are condemned are condemned because of unbelief. Is that a sin? What law does it transgress? For it is the law which shows us what sin is, according to Paul.
Now, if it is a sin, was not all sin atoned for, according to Hebrews? Not according to Calvinists, I know, but according to the Bible it was all atoned for. Simply not forgiven... and that is a different issue.
Now, if it is a sin, was not all sin atoned for, according to Hebrews? Not according to Calvinists, I know, but according to the Bible it was all atoned for. Simply not forgiven... and that is a different issue.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags
HP: Your effort is not wasted but will be rewarded with a word of truth.
Here are the words from a man after God’s own heart. “Ps 18:20 ¶ The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.BD17 said:
I know calvinists believe they are saved by grace, not by works. I agree. However, is it true calvinists believe works are a sign of salvation? If so, how do you deal with Romans 4:5? ("But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.")
As a non-calvinist I can say: "... I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." Can you?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
To the list: The Lord willing I shall return. I must see to some needful tasks. I have enjoyed the discussion with all of you, including my friend BD17:thumbs: . See you in a while!
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags
HP: Your effort is not wasted but will be rewarded with a word of truth.
Well, I know that God's word will not return to him void but will accomplish that purpose for which he sent it. Which is, ultimately, the salvation of the elect, and the indictment of the reprobate.
Now, as for David, do you declare to me, O Pelagius, that David was saved by his own righteousness, and hath not need of grace?
Blammo said:
Blammo, think about it. How would one make their "calling and election sure" if virtue was not added to faith? (see 2 Peter 1) How could someone walk in confidence of the Holy Spirit if they didn't have the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5)? How could someone KNOW that they were born of God unless love of God's law had come into their hearts (1 John 5)? Could it be said by someone that they had been "born again" but yet continues in rebellion against God's law? We do not rely on goods works to give us birth from above; but rather, we are born again by God's will and therefore do we work as God "worketh in you both to do and to will of his good pleasure", having been "created unto good works". The order is: BIRTH, then, WORKS. It's that simple.
So then, works are obviously "evidence" of the new birth. "By their fruits you shall know them".
Faith, which is imparted to the regenerated believer by God's Spirit, is counted for righteousness in justification before God. Works, which are produced in the believer by God's Spirit, are counted for righteousness in justification before man (see James).
As far as your question as to whether I can say "I know whom I believed...", I don't understand how you could ask such a question. What do you think - that Calvinists don't believe in faith?? It's the ARMINIAN, not the Calvinist, that can not say that "He is able to keep that...", for they fear that they will lose their salvation at any moment.
There was a thread some time back about songs that Arminians can not sing. I think I posted this one. Look at it, think about it, and then sing it. It is a perfect expression of God's sovereign work and man's passive blessing in salvation:
I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED
I know not why God's wondrous grace
to me he hath made known,
nor why, unworthy, Christ in love
redeemed me for his own.
Refrain:
But I know whom I have believed,
and am persuaded that he is able
to keep that which I've committed
unto him against that day.
I know not how this saving faith
to me he did impart,
nor how believing in his word
wrought peace within my heart.
(Refrain)
I know not how the Spirit moves,
convincing us of sin,
revealing Jesus through the word,
creating faith in him.
(Refrain)
I know not when my Lord may come,
at night or noonday fair,
nor if I walk the vale with him,
or meet him in the air.
(Refrain)
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J.D.,
I agree. And, we ought not forget this verse:
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
You know I am not an Arminian. I didn't earn salvation by works, so, I certainly don't keep it with works.
I love that hymn.
I agree. And, we ought not forget this verse:
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
You know I am not an Arminian. I didn't earn salvation by works, so, I certainly don't keep it with works.
I love that hymn.
what is defined as "works"?
not lying? not committing murder? not coveting? putting God first? not having idols? not taking the name of the Lord in vain? not keeping the sabbath? not committing adultery? not stealing?
are those works?
or is that a response from us to God displaying our love for him because he paid our fine?
if you're doing stuff for God out of obligation - its work.
if you're doing stuff for God for a love for God - then it is a right response on our behalf. not a work.
what is defined as "works"?
not lying? not committing murder? not coveting? putting God first? not having idols? not taking the name of the Lord in vain? not keeping the sabbath? not committing adultery? not stealing?
are those works?
or is that a response from us to God displaying our love for him because he paid our fine?
if you're doing stuff for God out of obligation - its work.
if you're doing stuff for God for a love for God - then it is a right response on our behalf. not a work.
what is defined as "works"?
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Whatever we do in the Jesus name is gold, silver, and precious stones.
Whatever we do in our own name is wood, hay, and stubble.
Witnessing to the lost is an example of a work. If you do it out of love and obedience to God, it is good and acceptable to God, and will receive reward. If you do it for your own glory, it is worthless, and will be burned up.
Whatever we do in the Jesus name is gold, silver, and precious stones.
Whatever we do in our own name is wood, hay, and stubble.
Witnessing to the lost is an example of a work. If you do it out of love and obedience to God, it is good and acceptable to God, and will receive reward. If you do it for your own glory, it is worthless, and will be burned up.
Brother Bob
New Member
KJMatt.03
"7": But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
"8": Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Oh, if only someone like me didn’t come along.:wavey:
Meet:
4 : to conform to especially with exactitude and precision <a concept to meet all requirements>
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Oh please JD. I was raise in Arminian circles and we sang that from the bottom of our heart on a regular basis. If you think for a minute that Arminians that have purified their hearts by faith and have an inner assurance that they are pleasing to God in their current walk are wondering if God will or can keep them, your are as mistaken as can be. Thank God for those Arminians walking in the light of the Word as testified by a conscience void of offense before God and man and are fully assured of God;s keeping power. There will be multitudes of them far ahead of any of us. I believe God will have anyone claiming any such thing concerning them busy making some needed apologies for such an accusation as that. How about a little Christian charity my friend?
To accuse them of believing salvation by works is again as far off as night is from day. They believe no such thing. To believe in conditions for salvation is not in the least salvation by works, and those that put up that paper duck are falsely accusing the brethren. God requiring us to direct our wills in the direction of repentance, faith and obedience in no wise constitutes ‘working for ones salvation.’ The things God requires of us are always thought of in the sense of not without which, not that for the sake of. What is so difficult in understanding that simple and Biblical distinction?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
__________________
HP: Gods requirements are to exercise ones will by forming intents consistent with repentance, faith and obedience to the end. Not for the sake of salvation, for the only grounds of salvation is the grace and mercy of God, but rather thought of in the sense of 'not without which,' as in the prison illustration concerning the need for the prisoner to show a true change of heart, attitude and walk at antipodes from that former life of violating the law, without which no pardon will be granted by any just or fair governor. He will not be pardoned for the sake of his repentance and change of attitude, but neither will he be pardoned apart from such formed intents. His pardon, regardless of the required conditions, can never be thought of as a pardon earned by his efforts. If the prisoner is pardoned it will be due to the grace and mercy of the governor, not his good works or even his repentant heart.