Free will

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

God chooses us, to serve Him; and we get saved - by Him and according to His own gracious will - to the end and for no other reason and on no other grounds.

 

[Burrito Breath]

Agree wid da foreigner Gerardo

Quoting Burito Breath,
"no meestakes in Hell!"

Yes! and all meestakes in heaven but for the electing grace of God!

That be bery, bery good two Geraldo! R U on TV?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: "But I and MY house --- we SHALL --" It is impossible we might do differently, because we are believers - the elect of God.

HP: Now this is a sure strange doctrine for you to espouse. What ever happened to sinning every day in thought word and deed?? I am not trying to say that one ‘could not’ live holy and that continually with the help of the Holy Spirit, but to say that it is ‘impossible’ to do otherwise seems a bit strong for a Calvinist, doesn’t it? I can only hope that not only do you believe it impossible, but that some indeed walk the talk.

GE: Josua may have just as well speak to wooden poles, were his speaking not the living Word of God proclaimed to the People in its very life-giving vogour. Or else Josua's claims would have been vain boasting.

HP: No poles or boasting there GE. He was addressing sentient moral beings created by God with a will to choose love and benevolence or selfishness and sin. His admonition was for them to choose life and live. It takes a free will to ‘choose life’ or selfishness. IN FACT: Josua told those Israelites it is IMPOSSIBLE they could serve the Lord; and he left them a choice to serve gods from among any of the FALSE gods - they could NOT serve the LORD God if it were evil in their eyes to serve HIM. "...if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites ..."

GE: IN FACT: Josua told those Israelites it is IMPOSSIBLE they could serve the Lord; and he left them a choice to serve gods from among any of the FALSE gods - they could NOT serve the LORD God if it were evil in their eyes to serve HIM. "...if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites ..."

HP: Only God knows how you get ‘impossible’ from “if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD.” Now it does not take a rocket scientist to know that if something is ‘impossible to do’ choice is a chimera.

The principle is that if there is only one possible consequent for a given antecedent, no choice is possible. If it was impossible for them to serve none other than their gods, it would be ludicrous for one to suggest a choice in the matter. Joshua clearly understood that there was a choice they were capable of making, which proves that indeed they were free to make a choice whether or not to serve God or their other gods.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: God chooses us, to serve Him; and we get saved - by Him and according to His own gracious will - to the end and for no other reason and on no other grounds.

HP: Now tell us if in fact you accept the logical ends of that reasoning and conclude that God necessitates the damnation of the sinner “by Him and according to His own gracious will - to the end and for no other reason and on no other grounds.”

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Posted Heavenly Pilgrim,
"GE: "But I and MY house --- we SHALL --" It is impossible we might do differently, because we are believers - the elect of God.

HP: Now this is a sure strange doctrine for you to espouse. What ever happened to sinning every day in thought word and deed?? I am not trying to say that one ‘could not’ live holy and that continually with the help of the Holy Spirit, but to say that it is ‘impossible’ to do otherwise seems a bit strong for a Calvinist, doesn’t it? I can only hope that not only do you believe it impossible, but that some indeed walk the talk."

Don't get me wrong; I meant not one no longer sins or no longer is a sinner after God wrought in you the New eternal Life through Jesus Christ. But at the same time it becomes impossible to that new creature God has created to His glory. It is the beginning of that inner battle between the old and new man - subjectively; and although it might seem the old man comes out victor, in the end Christ shall triumph. Objectively He has already triumphed and rules His Kingdom in the heart of each believer despite our own weaknesses.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

sorry, ... it has become impossible not to serve God heartily ....

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting Heavenly Pilgrim,
"The principle is that if there is only one possible consequent for a given antecedent, no choice is possible."

Your 'principle' isn't true. No choice is possible where there is only one possible consequent for a given antecedent --- the 'given antecedent' in the case of fallen man being total depravity and the impotency to act against one's own nature, so that free choice in the case of unregenerate man means choosing for evil. God saved us "while we were haters of God".
Only afterwards is man -- saved man -- able to FREELY 'choose' FOR God and not against Him.I would rather think of the regenerate man BEING free FOR God, and would not stress his deed of choosing so much. It is God who saves; not our choice.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting Heavenly Pilgrim,
"God necessitates the damnation of the sinner"
Another untrue presumption. The sinner's sinning and sin necessitate his damnation -- and it clearly is the only will God has concerning such that sin and sinner should be rewarded with sin's wages -- death. God wills that the sinner should perish in hell for his sins; yes! He the sinner isn't damned against the will of God - God does not stand there helpless, but as the Great Potentate over all.
Death should have been the lot of every one of us born under the sun, only, God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that who believes in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP: Now tell us if in fact you accept the logical ends of that reasoning and conclude that God necessitates the damnation of the sinner “by Him and according to His own gracious will - to the end and for no other reason and on no other grounds.”

So in actual fact you misquote me in order to launch your attack on free grace.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I said -- as you quoted me -- "God chooses us, to serve Him; and we get saved - by Him and according to His own gracious will - to the end and for no other reason and on no other grounds."

The new forum machine of BaptistsBoard deletes the original reference. I hope they will rectify

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting HP,
"It takes a free will to ‘choose life’ or selfishness."

Well said, HP. Just show me the unregenerate 'will' (or 'man') who would!
It takes a free will to ‘choose life’ and selfishness - a will freed by God for Himself through sovereign, electing grace.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

In a certain sense, man's will is always under bondage - either under bondage to evil; or under bondage to the freedom God gives through Christ Jesus.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP: Only God knows how you get ‘impossible’ from “if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD.” Now it does not take a rocket scientist to know that if something is ‘impossible to do’ choice is a chimera.

Absolutely! If something is ‘impossible to do’, choice is the grotesque vainglory of the imagination - a myth -- the myth of 'free will'. Josua didn't say, If it were evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, then serve the Lord! He said, Go satisfy your apetite for false gods elsewhere; you CANNOT serve the Lord while you think it is evil to serve the Lord --- while you think as unregenerate man MUST think!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: In a certain sense, man's will is always under bondage - either under bondage to evil; or under bondage to the freedom God gives through Christ Jesus.

HP: What are you speaking of when you speak of ‘man’s will?’ According to you man has no will for all is nothing but the necessitated munitions of necessity. The only good a will would serve for such a necessitated individual would be either a hat rack or instructions on where to dump his ashes…... Or is that necessitated as well?

GE: Absolutely! If something is ‘impossible to do’, choice is the grotesque vainglory of the imagination - a myth -- the myth of 'free will'. Josua didn't say, If it were evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, then serve the Lord! He said, Go satisfy your apetite for false gods elsewhere; you CANNOT serve the Lord while you think it is evil to serve the Lord --- while you think as unregenerate man MUST think!

HP: Let’s see. Choice is grotesque vainglory. Now it could not matter whether such a choice would be obedience or disobedience, for without choice all is vanilla. Sin is not a choice and righteousness is not a choice, for if either was it would all be vain glory. There can be no blame or praise for it was impossible to do anything other than what you did under the very same set of circumstances. No need for warnings or instructions for all is necessitated. No worry about being wrong or ill tempered for all those suggest choice, and we sure don’t want any of that vainglory, do we? No reason to ever feel remorse, for it would be vainglory to look in retrospect and believe that you could have done something other than you did, for all is necessitated. Repentance? Who are we kidding. To repent is to show remorse, which can be nothing other than vainglory according to GE. Never have to worry about getting reprimanded for a wrong choice, for GE has his excuse…. He had no choice.

Somebody help us.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

It would appear to me that we have a wayward student of Calvinism run amuck, that needs professional help. Would there be anyone out there reading this thread that might be of the ‘major credential’ type that might help set this notion of choice being vain glory to rest?

 

[BobRyan]

All the foul fowls of Arminianism in a single post!

It presupposes most dishonestly no one is lost unless he chose to be lost; and everybody truly is not lost unless God declares he is lost.
It's such an ugly doctrine of lies!

But BobRyan adds his own bit of SDA venom: "the second resurrection
<obligatory Ranting and whining deleted>

Instead of whining about what you don't like - why not make a point?

Your rant above that denies the resurrections in Rev 20 is seen - but hard to believe.

Why don't you try to support your complaining with something from the chapter?

AS for the LOST not being LOST - why not support that with a quote where someone says (preferrably an Arminian) that nobody is lost until God "gets them lost".

 

[BobRyan]

But, Bobee, mi amigo,

Deed u not say in another post that God chose de free weel ? If God chose the free weel of men, and not the men themselves, porque there are ahora real men (no el machos) who are borning in hell, and not their wills onlee ?
Porque ? Por favor, amigo, diga.

Nope -

God CHOOSES free will for ALL - and He enables it by the John 1 fact that "Christ is the LIGHT of the world who coming into the world ENLIGHTENS EVERY MAN".

He is the one who "DRAWS ALL MANKIND UNTO HIM" John 12:32.

He is the one who sends the Holy Spirit to "CONVICT THE WORLD OF SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS AND JUDGMENT".

Even the most wild-eyed Calvinist does NOT deny that those who ARE DRAWN are enabled to choose life!!

 

[Brother Bob]

I am so glad I am not like some say I am for my life is serving the Lord. If they were right then all would be vanity. If we had hope in this life only we would be of men most miserable. Sometimes I just have to reflect on the Lord and my Salvation is just between Him and I and all these things that are said about me and others who have faith in God is just false ramblings. Thank God they are not our Judge. raying:

 

[webdog]

In a certain sense, man's will is always under bondage - either under bondage to evil; or under bondage to the freedom God gives through Christ Jesus.

Man's will is always under bondage, eh? Once someone becomes a believer the Holy Spirit is powerless to overcome the "bondage" of the will...and that person remains "always...under bondage to evil"? Another example of a "doctrines of grace" student who upholds the highest sovereignty of God...denying the very thing they try to protect.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: Man's will is always under bondage, eh? Once someone becomes a believer the Holy Spirit is powerless to overcome the "bondage" of the will...and that person remains "always...under bondage to evil"? Another example of a "doctrines of grace" student who upholds the highest sovereignty of God...denying the very thing they try to protect.

HP: In all fairness I believe you might have missed GE’s point to a degree. Although the will, according to GE is always under bondage, I understand him to say that subsequent to salvation the will is under bondage to righteousness to the point that he claims it is ‘impossible’ to do otherwise. One thing that remains steadfast in his presentation, as I understand him, is that all is necessitated and that man has no free will to vary one scintilla from that necessitated course. He is either under necessity to sin or under necessity to righteousness. I may be wrong, but that is how I understand him thus far in our conversation. Possibly he will set us both straight.

It is absolutely contrary to the indications of Scripture that once enlightened one cannot choose to do otherwise or that it is impossible to sin. I believe that GE is a product of the maelstrom of confusion of Calvinism, that any and all that pursue its tenants will land into, IF one carries out such a system to it’s (il) logical ends.